Existence of a US model question

[Geoff]

Trying to go through all of the posts to learn as much about my new to me '64 TES I came across mention of another '64 that was exported from the US to NZ that has / had the same attributes - namely a steel tank and a M20 cylinder. Are there anymore like this floating around or was it just a common modification someone would make?

[Colin Sparrow]

24TES had a Greeves square alloy cylinder barrel on a Villiers 32A as original. They all started life with a polished alloy tank.

The budget 24TE had a steel tank and an iron cylinder barrel.

[nzpeterb]

Greeves 24TES

Geoff,

Welcome to the GRA. As my Greeves is the one you have referred to, I thought I should reply. I only check the site sporadically but if you have any questions I am happy to answer them, though other members might beat me to the reply.

The TES model ran from 1962 to 1964, and over that time had a number of changes while still being called a TES. The changes I am aware of are listed below, and I am sure others might add further items:

• 1962 had the round exhaust and muffler on the right, while by 1964 the exhaust was on the left and comprised the square front pipe with the oval car type muffler.
• The first bikes had the pressed steel hubs and backing plates. By 1964 the hubs were full width aluminium that actually weigh more than the steel hubs they replaced. The two wheels on my TES with steel rims and tires weight over 40kg
• The first TES had circular tube for the rear swing arm, which was changed to a rectangular swing arm by 1964.
• My 1964 model has a Villiers carburettor but I understand the first TES had an Amal Monoblock. The TE had a Villiers.
• Based on catalogues I have the first TES had aluminium guards while later TES bikes used fibreglass. THe TE always had aluminium guards.

My bike came from California and had a California Off Road registration when received. I assume it was sold new in America. Greeves were popular for Hare 'n Hounds or Desert Racing. There are some wonderful clips on the web of 60's racing in the Mojave Desert where you can spot the odd Greeves taking part.
For example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3a64niu0db8

As received my bike had non standard parts that reflect it's use, but I do not believe these represent a specialist American Greeves model. The changes were:

• 19 inch front wheel. Definitely non standard as it had a flanged aluminium rim. The desert set up was to use a trials front tyre and knobbly motocross tyre on the back. The tyre on the back of my bike was 6 ply and very hard, so had to be cut off.
• A large steel petrol tank in place of the smaller aluminium tank. I fitted a smaller tank obtained second hand as it simply looks better on the bike.
• My bike was also fitted with Bates folding footrests. Unfortunately these were welded onto the frame so they were level when the bike was on its side stand. Not so good when the bike was stood vertical.
• Buco motocross bars which were a lot taller than trials bars. The brace on these handlebars was a curved square steel section. I used these originally but have now changed to chrome Sammy Miller bars.
• My bike came fitted with aluminium guards. I don't imagine the fibreglass guards would withstand many spills in the desert.

My bike is now rebuilt and being used in trials in New Zealand. I put up a number of photos of the bike as received, being rebuild, and now being ridden in a Flicker album. See:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nzpeterb/albums/72157656373194205

This album also includes a scan of the original TE and TES Services Notes I have a copy of, although GRA members have access to a lot of this information anyway.
One of the photos in the album shows the steel petrol tank and aluminium tank side by side so it is clear how much wider the steel tank is. The extra size was needed in the desert races which had laps between 35 and 100 miles dependent on the event.

As an aside, if you want to have a look at the trials scene in New Zealand just search for nzpeterb on Flickr or go to:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nzpeterb/albums

I tried to keep my bike close to original but did make some modifications These were:

• Modern folding footrests. This is a safety item. In the early 1980's I narrowly avoided surgery but limped for 2 years after an incident riding a Greeves scrambler with rigid pegs. Not doing that again. The original pegs were cut off my bike before I got it, but recently there have been posts on the forum showing folding pegs being fitted off the original foot peg mounts
• Ball end brake and clutch levers on the handlers. Also safety, but no actual experience of being impaled.
• All bearings fitted with integral seals where possible. All felt washers deleted as we do ride in creeks in New Zealand. I machined up spacers to fit in the hubs to push the bearing out flush with the outside of the hubs.
• Purchased the modern friction material clutch plates from Villiers Services which coupled with their lighter clutch springs gives a nicer clutch with no slipping.
• The bike did not come with a seat. The first I got apparently matched the original size but was too wide rubbing the inside of my legs which was uncomfortable after riding a 3 day trial. Now I have made a narrower seat which has proven good. I know many cut the seat mounts and drop the seat but I did not want to cut the frame.
• I tidied up the original rear shocks and repaired and re-plated the shrouds only to discover dampers units have progressed since the 60's so I fitted Falcon shocks. I bought them 20 mm longer than standard but will swap these onto the Bultaco I am restoring, and go back to the original length. At present the swing arm movement means the chain has to be quite loose with no one on the bike as it tightens in the original movement than stays constant. While I have never had the chain come off the original travel seems best.
• Gearing was another change made with the back sprocket being increased from 54 teeth to 62 teeth. This seems to suit the sections ridden locally. Note that the standard rear sprocket guard that bolts onto the swing arm just in front of the sprocket does not clear the chain when the large sprocket is fitted. I did not find this out until I made and painted one, only to have the chain rub on it. I changed to a shark fin cut from a kitchen chopping board and hasn't changed it since.
• Drilled and tapped the boss in the carburettor to provide a throttle stop screw so the bike idles where I want.
• The bike was loud. I filed the weld off around one end of the muffler so I could pull the end cap off. I did try repacking the muffler but later changed to a one inch perforated tube with a washer and short piece of, I think, 2 inch pipe welded over the outside to form a socket at each end, then repacked. I used a few rivets to put the muffler end back on so it can easily be dismantled and repacked in future.
• Originally the coil tested OK and was reused with just new condenser, wiring, HT pick up and plug. It lasted 18 months then failed. Initially I sent the coil to UK to be rewound but this was a waste of money. The newly wound coil was significantly smaller than the original suggesting much less wire. Measuring with a meter showed the new winding well under spec, so no surprise the bike still didn't run properly. Ditched everything and went electronic and the bikes good manners are restored.

I think that's everything. If nothing else this might be the longest post on the forum for a while.
If you are doing work to your bike and have a question I, or many others on here, will be more than happy to share their experience.

Best regards,

Peter.

[Geoff]

Thank you Peter!

Your machine was the one I was thinking, as it seemed I had some of the same modifications. Being new to Greeves, I have nothing but questions which this group and Colins book have gone a long way to answering.

Thank you for the link to the photo album as it is most informative as you have shown what pieces I have been questioning such as the tank - after viewing the tanks in you album it definitely has the larger capacity steel tank.

The machine itself was found by a friend two years ago who went through the engine to get it mechanically sound, then passed it along to me.

Indications are it lived a fairly rough life as an ice racer in New York. I am attempting to take it the rest of the way in a relatively short time for an enduro event in late September. After that, I was planning on either doing trials or vintage motor cross with it.

Thank you again!

Geoff

[Brian Thompson]

That's the way to do it....!

Hi Peter, Geoff,

Just wanted to say thanks for that terrific post in support of Geoff's query Peter, as you say, the longest, and certainly the most interesting one as far as I'm concerned, for quite a while on here.

Come back anytime Peter, and keep up the excellent work!

PS Love to hear more about your very tasty racer, by the way......please?!

Brian.

[nzpeterb]

Old Greeves Memories

Geoff,
I have edited my previous post to include one more comment relating to running the large 62 tooth back sprocket. If you are doing an enduro or cross country event you will not want your gearing that low.
The standard rear sprocket guard that bolts onto the swing arm just in front of the sprocket does not clear the chain when the large sprocket is fitted. I did not find this out until I made and painted one, only to have the chain rub on it. I changed to a shark fin cut from a kitchen chopping board and haven't changed it since.

Brian,
Thanks for your kind words re the post.
I no longer have either the road racer or Challenger. I sold both to the same person some 30 years ago when I developed a limp. (The cause is outlined in my original post). The new owner on sold the road racer 12 months later and don't know where it is now. The person kept the Challenger and it has never been run since I sold it. The owner lives at the other end of New Zealand and now spends a lot of time overseas. It has been stored in a number of local sheds deteriorating over the years. Unfortunately the current owner sees the bike as an investment goldmine.
I did a quick story on both bikes when I joined the GRA which I was surprised to see was 2011.
Hopefully I can add a link to the old post here.

http://www.greeves-riders.org.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=2628

Regards,
Peter

[Geoff]

Thanks again Peter!

I have a 60 tooth sprocket on it now that rubs the guard. I have not really decided what to do - change the sprocket or figure a way to lower the guard...

Anyone have a recommendation for a sprocket size?