My Greeves Scottish - 24TCS.

[Brian Thompson]

This is my 1959/60 24TCS 'Scottish' trials, frame no. 60/14**, and my P&J. When I was looking for my first Greeves, I followed Andrew King's advice and took my time, remembering his words that there are (or at least were at the time..) plenty of bikes 'out there' and not to 'rush in' and buy the first one that came up. In the end it took me two years to track this one down, and I'm really glad that I did hold on as it was exactly what I was looking for. It also has an (for me personally) extremely special, albeit very sad, connection....

My TCS left the factory (dispatched to Comerfords of Thames Ditton) on Friday 23rd. October, 1959. Members interested in Greeves history will realise that was the week of the accident (Wednesday 21st.) that claimed the life of Brian Stonebridge, when he was travelling back from the Hepolite factory with Bert Greeves, with Brian's funeral being held on the following Monday (the 26th.) A 'friday afternoon bike' then, but in the most tragic of circumstances....I don't know what 'Mystic Meg' would make of this, but I was born a year later almost to the day, on 22nd. October 1960....Sure, you can read too much into these things, but it means a lot to me and that is all that matters in the long run. However, read on....

After two years of looking for my Greeves, and having seen plenty (but not anything that felt 'right'), I placed a wanted ad in 'Leading Link'. I only had one reply, from ex GRA member Brian Power (yet another Brian!...and a lovely chap, he owns a mint Silk 700S.) He had originally bought the bike to accompany his son for a spot of green laning (with his son riding a big KTM enduro...!), but after a few runs decided it wasn't for him. This coincided with me placing my ad. Interestingly, I had seen the bike advertised around a year earlier as part of Greeves Motorcycles Limited S/H stock, but at the time felt it was somewhat overpriced even though it was just what I wanted so I passed it up and kept looking.

When I arrived at Brian's to view the bike he was most impressed that I recognised it, and immediately told me about a problem he had on taking delivery. After having the bike for less than a week, the carb slide adjustment screw (yes, that one, for all those knowledgable Villiers types out there!) had done it's usual trick of dropping into the cylinder and buried itself into the top of the piston...! (Part no. V786E...see 'LL'#63 for further info on what to do with these pesky varmints!) Brian wasn't happy, as can be imagined, but Greeves Motorcycles took the bike away and put it right FOC, including a replacement barrel, one with a full compliment of fins too which was a bit of a bonus! I went to collect the bike the following week, most appropriately in the company of my good friend David Stonebridge (his father John was BGS's cousin), and was happy to pay Brian's full asking price, as he was taking a big hit on what he had originally paid and it was 'spot on' for the bikes worth from what I had learned while researching the market at the time. It saved all that ungentlemanly haggling too, and Brian Power is very much a gentleman in my book! (Thanks again Brian, I'll never forget it.) He was delighted to know it was going to such an appreciative home too, and he in turn put the money towards a Hinkley Triumph to save his Silk for 'best'. Big smiles all round then!

As for the bikes early history, all I've been able to find out is that on the original 'blue' V5 that came with the bike, it was originally restored and put back on the road (I think) by John Hodges from Ilminster, a GRA member at the time, and who took part in some of the early club trials. An age related plate (MSU 45*) was applied for by him (via Roy Bacon) in July 1988, but the V5 also states that it had been 'previously registered/used prior to this date'...The V5 shows 'no former keepers' prior to this date though, I guess because it was in effect a 'new registration' perhaps...? Needless to say, if anyone reading this can shed any light on the bikes early history I would be delighted to hear from you.

For the last few years I've been enjoying the bike as it it, whilst steadily accumulating the parts it needs to put it back to standard spec come rebuild time. It has an external coil mod (starts first or second kick every time, with a good tickle!) and the front mudguard is from a roadster (I have sourced the correct front and rear replacements), so is the wrong 'arc' due to the 21 inch front wheel. The toolbox is home made (I have a correct item to fit), the seat should be a Dunlop sprung type (got one of those too, and had some springs made to factory spec from the relevant drawing by Paul Savage.) The rear subframe isn't quite right, but only needs a numberplate strap welding on, but I have a correct replacement to use when I eventually fit the Dunlop rubber saddle (available from John Budgen M/C and Sammy Miller as well.) This way, I'll be able to have a choice! (Those Dunlop saddles are a bit uncomfortable by all accounts, and don't wear white trousers by the way...!!!)

I have the correct speedo for the bike, fully restored and ready to fit. The pipe and silencer both need rechroming but are correct for the bike (front pipes differ between TA and TC.) I have a new chainguard and front mudguard stay (huge thanks to Dave Harrison and Adrian Dickerson) to fit, along with new Metalastik bushes (forks and swingarm) as well, but otherwise there's not much else to sort out other than paint....If you look around the bike it currently seems to have just about every 'variation' in shade of Moorland blue that there is...! (I'll have to pick one...'eenie meenie minie mo' etc!!! )It had a slight wheel alignment issue, traced to incorrect frame spacers (!), but all in all it's a good solid little bike. I love it to bits as you can probably tell!

Anyway, thats my Greeves. Another 'epic' BT post I know (!), but I hope everyone enjoys reading it and seeing the pics.

Brian.

[John Wakefield]

Brian, your bike would have had a Surrey registration. The marks in use for October 1959 were 1-999 MPE & 1-999 MPD. If your bike was registered at the end of October its likely its reg letters were MPD. If it went into November it could have been *** MPE
Sadly no Surrey records exist for 1959, only from 1921 to 1945 which are held by The Kithead Trust, Droitwich Spa. Why not try to contact John Hodges as he may know what the original registration number was. It looks like an age related number was issued because in 1988 DVLA would not re issue the original number even if known.

[Brian Thompson]

My Greeves.

Thanks John, that's great information and really useful. I very much appreciate you taking the time and trouble to look into that on my behalf, and in responding so quickly too.

I do have an old address for John Hodges on a V5 issued in 1991, so I'll have to give it a go and see what happens. In the meantime I've had a further dig through the documentation that came with the bike, and can add the following information, for interest.

From being dispatched to Comerfords in 1959, what then happened to the bike is a complete mystery, at least until the late 1980's. The earliest documentation I have is a headed letter from the VMCC, 'Statement of Search to Establish Date of Manufacture of Frame & Engine of a Motorcycle', dated March 1987. It is difficult to make out the name of the signatory (signed on behalf of the VMCC Dating Committee), but it confirms the year of manufacture as 1960. It was issued by W.J. Flew, of Kingswood in Bristol. The Roy Bacon reference I made in my previous post relates to one of his 'flyers' being part of the documentation I have. Perhaps he advised JH of someone local to him to help with obtaining a dating letter, possibly affiliated to the VMCC?

The next bit of paperwork is a confirmation letter from the Inquiry Officer at the Vehicle Registration Office (Brendon House, Taunton), informing JH that following her inspection of the bike (mid July, 1988), what the 'new' age related number was to be and that a V5 was on it's way to him. The V5 states the date of registration as the begining of July, so I assume it was backdated if the inspection didn't happen untill midaway through the same month?! I wonder if the preceeding year and a bit 'gap' was when JH perhaps originally restored the bike, prior to applying for the new reg and putting it back into use?

The trail then comes to a break though, as it seems JH used the bike up until June 1992, as the expiry dates on the last MOT and Tax disc I have for this period confirm.

We then come forward to June 2005, the issue date for the MOT that was carried out prior to the bikes sale to Brian Power by Greeves Motorcycles. As previously mentioned, Brian then ran the bike for just under a year before selling it on to me.

Soon after getting the bike Brian applied for GRA membership, and on the back of his membership confirmation letter (which he passed on to me, along with other doucumentation including copies of the factory parts book and manual), the GRA Membership Secretary at the time had kindly written the bikes details from the factory dispatch records, in response to Brian's additional query. These notes indicated that the engine currently fitted is not in fact the original unit that came with the bike, something of course very common with old machines like this, for obvious reasons.

The only source I could find to check if mine is a unit that was supplied direct to Greeves by Villiers was, at the time, Roy Bacons excellent 'Villiers Singles and Twins' book (ISBN 1-85579-020-3) The original engine code for my bike should be 863B. However, the code of the engine currently fitted is 747D, and this was unfortunately not listed. Thanks to Rob Carrick and Mick Walker's recent book ('Villiers-Everybody's Engine'; ISBN 978-0-9555278-4-5) and the fully updated listings included, I have now been able to confirm that my engine is indeed a Greeves supplied 32A engine, and was fitted between 1960-62 to 'Greeves'. The 863B 32A engines are more specifically listed as being fitted to 'TCS', 'TDS', 'TD' and 'TE' models between 1960-65, so perhaps mine was a factory replacement (maybe even a warranty claim?) made early in the bikes life, or maybe an 'authentic' item sourced later on in the bikes life? Who knows?!!

Of course, I love the bike 'as it is', and the age related number it now has is as much part of it's history as anything else in my view. However, it would be interesting to find out more about the bike's early life from 1960 to 1987, and then later on from 1992 to 2005, which are the two big 'gaps'...If I'm lucky, perhaps JH may indeed be able to shed some light on it, and finding out what the bikes original reg. no. was would be a great start.

I'll let you know how I get on John!

Thanks again,

Brian.

[John Wakefield]

Anyone from Comerfords on line?

Brian
I don't suppose there are any Comerfords sales records surviving, I think someone told me they were thrown out but you never know, maybe you could search out some of the Comerfords sales guys, Bert Thorn etc but I suppose they are getting old now & some may have passed on. Someone on here may know of someone. Be nice to find original number if only to trace the bikes early history.

[Brian Thompson]

My Greeves.

Thanks again John, that's a good idea. I reckon Dicky F might be able to point me in the right direction on that one. I'll have a word with him about it.

Tell you what I have managed to find though...a smashing Comerfords dealer badge to go on the bike one day! It'll be a nice finishing touch I reckon.

I'll let you know if I do manage to track down the original number.

Brian.

[garybam4711]

Nice original Scottish thanks for sharing
Gary