Seen at festival

[brokabolt]

Hiya all,
Saw this at the festival of transport at Hellingly East Sussex yesterday.When i arrived home i went through Colin's amazing book to identify exactly what model it was because i couldn't find the owner. There wasn't a picture in the book with a bike with the same frame. This one has twin down tubes under the seat but the rear brake rod set was for a later bike. According to Colin's book with this rear brake rod set up it should have a single down tube. The frame number is 630T and it has a 9E engine. Cheers all. Mick

[John Wakefield]

20TA at Hellingly

Its a 1956 20T with later forks, there is a good pic of one in the Carrick & Walker Greeves book page 25 (pic attached)
I think you will find the frame number was 6301 rather than 630T. Looks a fairly original example. Did you get the reg number?

[Stuart Baskill]

Its a 1956 20T there is a good pic of one in the Carrick & Walker Greeves book page 25 (pic attached)
I think you will find the frame number was 6301 rather than 630T. Looks a fairly original example. Did you get the reg number?

The front forks with the internal damper are 1957 which had two down tubes from seat to swinging arm pivot.These have the wrong spaces as they too close on the swinging arm pivot.The frame number should start with a 7 and be 4 numbers long followed by a T for trials.

[Stuart Baskill]

Hiya all,
Saw this at the festival of transport at Hellingly East Sussex yesterday.When i arrived home i went through Colin's amazing book to identify exactly what model it was because i couldn't find the owner. There wasn't a picture in the book with a bike with the same frame. This one has twin down tubes under the seat but the rear brake rod set was for a later bike. According to Colin's book with this rear brake rod set up it should have a single down tube. The frame number is 630T and it has a 9E engine. Cheers all. Mick

It has been modified to make it more competitive.The footrests have been moved further back and a later exhaust fitted.Its a 1957 trials 20T

[John Wakefield]

Still think the main part of it ie the alloy beam is 1956 20T. I seem to recall this or a similar bike being on eBay some time back, the seat is from a 40's road bike rather than the rubber one originally fitted. I would not have thought 7xxx/T would have gone to 7630/T as they started at 7001/T. They also had a forward slash before T.

[Colin Sparrow]

The twin stays under the seat were only used, on the comp bikes (20S and 20T), in 1956. 6301 makes sense for a 1956 20T. the "6" prefix indicates a 1956 bike. The dispatch records don't quite go back that far, although 6302 is there - but with no dispatch date.

1956 was the first year that spring dampers were used for the rear suspension on the 20T.

There is a picture of a 1956 20T on page 46 of the book...

Do remember that competition bikes always get modified, and a lot can be changed in nearly sixty years. For example, the original forks would have been friction damped, so they've been changed for a later set.

[Stuart Baskill]

The twin stays under the seat were only used, on the comp bikes (20S and 20T), in 1956. 6301 makes sense for a 1956 20T. the "6" prefix indicates a 1956 bike. The dispatch records don't quite go back that far, although 6302 is there - but with no dispatch date.

1956 was the first year that spring dampers were used for the rear suspension on the 20T.

There is a picture of a 1956 20T on page 46 of the book...

Do remember that competition bikes always get modified, and a lot can be changed in nearly sixty years. For example, the original forks would have been friction damped, so they've been changed for a later set.

The twin stays were fitted in 1956-7 and the bikes were indentical except for the front forks.I have both.I think the allocated 1956 numbers were between 6001 T and 6050T.The 1957 started at 7001T .Greeves seemed to have allocated 50 numbers to each model but I think they made more than 50 in 1957 as mine has an higher number.

[Stuart Baskill]

Still think the main part of it ie the alloy beam is 1956 20T. I seem to recall this or a similar bike being on eBay some time back, the seat is from a 40's road bike rather than the rubber one originally fitted. I would not have thought 7xxx/T would have gone to 7630/T as they started at 7001/T. They also had a forward slash before T.

You might be right as the only difference is the forks.I don't think mine have a slash before the T.

[John Wakefield]

According to the model listings the 1956 20D & 20S dont not have a letter (T or S) in the number
1956 20T Trials 197cc Villiers 9E M2 6001
1956 20S Scrambles 197cc Villiers 9E M3 6251

So it could be a 20S beam/frame

[brokabolt]

Seen at festival

I also thought that there should be four numbers on frame so i went back to double check. Frame definitely says 630T. Engine number 580B 11267 but i expect this has been changed at some time. There wasn't a registration number on the bike. Cheers Mick.

[John Wakefield]

I also thought that there should be four numbers on frame so i went back to double check. Frame definitely says 630T. Engine number 580B 11267 but i expect this has been changed at some time. There wasn't a registration number on the bike. Cheers Mick.

Strange about the frame number, the engine number is for a 9E fitted to Ambassador 3 Star Envoy so not original.

[Colin Sparrow]

6302 was a 20T, and there is no "T" in the dispatch record. It seems to me more likely that the "1" has been altered to a "T". It would be easy enough to do.

Or someone at the factory picked up the wrong number punch...

[John Wakefield]

6302 was a 20T, and there is no "T" in the dispatch record. It seems to me more likely that the "1" has been altered to a "T". It would be easy enough to do.

Or someone at the factory picked up the wrong number punch...

The No 1 stamp has got a large angled top to it so could easily be taken as a T. Did you take a pic Brokabolt? Or as you say Colin some picked up the wrong stamp.

[brokabolt]

Seen at festival

Hiya all,
No i didn't take a picture. I've put my griffon on show at the Laughton country show on Sept 7th so i will take a picture then. It was up ther last year so there's a good chance it will be up there this year. Cheers Mick

[Stuart Baskill]

According to the model listings the 1956 20D & 20S dont not have a letter (T or S) in the number
1956 20T Trials 197cc Villiers 9E M2 6001
1956 20S Scrambles 197cc Villiers 9E M3 6251

So it could be a 20S beam/frame

I have two 1956 20D bikes and their numbers are 6***D