Griffon models vs other bikes on the classic scrambles scene

[dave higgins]

Hi everybody.
Since getting back into the scrambles & classic bike scene, i can`t help but notice the market resistance towards the griffon models, they very rarely, in my own opinion fetch anywhere near their worth.
You can buy a rough, but mostly there project bike for a £1000, or a £1500 almost there but needs a bit more fettling type machine.
Anything over that doesn`t seem to attract any interest, it could be that they are in the pre 74 class & up against the left hand g/change bikes , the likes of the maico`s, bultaco`s etc.
Take a 380 cz for example, clean bike, race ready, £3000 upwards, the griffon although not as common anyway seems to be like the fat kid always getting picked last for the football team at school!!.
personally i think they are a superb bike & under rated, but i`m biased, it just seems a shame that the only 100 per cent all greeves bike is the one with the low esteem in terms of value & interest from perspective owners & riders.
This is only my opinion though, what do you think, dave.

[John Wakefield]

Griffins

Dave
Maybe they are a bit too hairy for todays riders, a real mans machine.

[Colin Sparrow]

You can buy a rough, but mostly there project bike for a £1000, or a £1500 almost there but needs a bit more fettling type machine.

Don't knock it, Dave, surely they're a good, relatively inexpensive way in.

There's a lot of fun to be had with a Griffon - as my son Owen discovered racing my 380 a few years ago!

[dave higgins]

No don`t get me wrong colin, i`m not knocking it or moaning, i`m just pointing out that they seem to be rated as the under dog in the pre 74 class.
Price is the most accurate indicater of popularity & when they come up for sale on unmentioned auction sites, they are either not sold or fetch low prices.
The griffons deserve a bit more respect in the old wallet department i reckon!.... dave.

[Kim275]

Hi Dave I think you have sparked a great debate her. And you your analysis on relative cost and popularity is accurate .
Two separate questions here 1. Are Qub griffons competitive vs Cz's and 2 . Were they or are they as popular ?

Re 1 my view is yes .
Re 2 in 1973 many more cz s were sold than Qub griffons . And today many more Cz's will be up to tuned racing spec
Today though as in 1973 more quick riders choose Cz than Greeves and more Cz's are in a quicker state of tune . However the potential of the Griffon is clear and with more riders riding them thanks to Dave Harpur then the gap will close .
And finally my ' quick griffons ' are not for sale but I would price them higher than a Cz which may be quick but has a frame built out of plumbing pipe Greeves also stood for quality !and were well made Cheers Kim

[stormer254]

Another point in favour of the CZ is the wrong side gear change, which is of course what the younger lads find more natural having been brought up on Jap machines I ride a modern machine in the winter, a Gas Gas, and my head is well and truly scrambled (no change there then) when I get back on a real bike

[Peter Rotherham]

Griffons

Dave, there is always the point that when 'bikes stopped being "old bikes" and became "Classics" in the early 80s, most openings for use were in the pre 65 area. Thus anything post 65 was overlooked. There was also the fact that these machines have very little suspension travel, were air cooled and heavy, so those using modern bikes looked on them as too restrictive to use easily. I can remember how, in the early days of the GRA, this was often discussed, and it was really individuals like Dave Harper who sorted it by creating events with specific classes for Challengers & Griffons.
Personally, I was only interested in the Alloy Beam type Greeves wiith Villiers engines, as were many others. As to availability, looking for a TDS, I ran an ad in the B'ham Mail in 1980. I found 1 Scottish and a dozen Challengers within 5 miles of my home. (I bought the Scottish!).
If you ever meet Andy Hare, he was one of the last Greeves sponsored riders, and still has his Griffon. He's a BIG lad, and he needs all his strength to control it. I wouldn't even try to start it, it scares me just looking at it

[dave higgins]

Hi kim, points well made & correct i think,
Another facter i think in certain greeves models unpopularity, is the years the bikes were produced in relation to the amca classic moto x class ratings, pre 60, pre 65, pre 74,
Take a 66 to 68 challenger, great bikes but lumped in with machines with up to seven years engineering advancement under their belts, the twin port griffons suffer the same problem.
The hawkstones in the 60 to 65 class are also not popular in most parts of the country, the obvious exception being the greeves stronghold in the s/east with the greeves series & pre 65 on their doorstep.
The rest of us do not seem to have this rich mixture of greeves at our meetings, ( sadly ) but the h/stones which were a breakthrough in their day, world beaters for a period, are now bikes no one wants to ride competitively, which i guess is because they are dated compared to what you can ride in the pre 65 class, & by that i mean all the modern replica ( alleged ) pre 65`s.
I`m sure its not just greeves, where are the dots & cottons, sprites & many other good quality light weights, its a shame & its not through shortage, we have all seen usable greeves & the like auctioned every other week, so where do they go, not on the track thats for sure.
Sorry for wandering off track & whinging everyone , but unless all these people that have bought a bike thinking of having a go, actually do, then all the others that have bought one as a pension fund will be a bit dissapointed because it won`t be worth zilch, because no one will remember who greeves were. greeves are classics, lets see a few more in action please.

[dave higgins]

Sorry peter & stormer, i`d started my reply a couple of hours ago & got called away, so thats why my reply seems indifferent to your points. dave

[stormer254]

Put a top rider on a Griffon and get him to win the Classic British Championship, then see what would happen

[wfo47w]

More Griffons

OK, I’m going to weigh in on this Griffon stuff. (Just my observations and perspective from the U.S.) I started racing scrambles/motocross in 1966, on a Gold Star. After a few other machines I bought a new 250 Griffon in late 1969. As far as racing goes It was a very frustrating relationship. The clutch was hard to pull. It was difficult to shift because of the ergonomics of the gear lever/foot peg. The ignition was always wet and the points would close up. As a comparison, I got a sidepipe CZ in 1970. I regularly raced both bikes on the same day. Once the Jikov carb was replaced with a Mikuni, it was a flawless race bike. Nearly indestructible, fast and easy to ride. At least where I raced, I rarely saw another Griffon.

As far as vintage racing today is concerned, I think you could count the number of Griffons racing in the U.S. on one hand. I’m sure Kenny could add to this. The Villiers powered variants seem to be the most popular, then Challengers and then Griffons. It seems the number of machines for sale and their values follow the same trend. (For reference, in AHRMA events, all 250 Challengers and Griffons race together, mostly against twin pipe CZs, 4-speed OSSAs and late 250 BSA/Triumphs.)

Dean Newton
Seattle, USA

[challenger]

You could be right Dave,the greeves could be a niche market ?Ilast raced 2 years ago with bath club only a few greeves at meeting.I previously owned a stormer which i also think sale at the lower end,even for one well sorted.But (being novice) only done5 races i chose both of these bikes because i wanted british,but they were both built for the job as a scramble
bike,unlike beezers which i realised were made up of many different parts(couldn't cope with my lack of knowledge.
So yes i think the greeves should hold a competitive price on the classic scene being a true british thourobred scrambles machine
If races were held with bikes entered as they left the factory how many makes would there be?

[dave higgins]

Hi challenger, yes i agree, that there would be a very poor show of hands at a meeting if every bike had to be factory original only, but & i`m no expert on this, i would imagine that right from day one bikes of all sorts were being modified, converted, improved by using parts from other areas.
Brian stonebridge & greeves tried different motors, & i reckon they would have tried & used anything that gave them an edge, which is no different than now really. dave.

[druid]

Griffons

Dave,
The difference now is that we are trying to retain some semblance of originality. Back in the 60's, provided the capacity was correct and it wasn't running on Dope anything was allowed.

Generally, the pre 74 class strokers are the least modified of all the classic scramblers, mainly new ignitions and rear shocks to replace worn out originals that you can no longer buy.

Druid

[ADickerson]

"Some semblance of originality" is indeed the plot, the whole point of Pre65 was to draw a line under progress and race bikes of that era, warts and all. Naturally when competition is thrown into the mix then there's always the temptation to add this or that etc. I've put my Griffon together from a basket case bought a few years ago and it's pretty well as it would have left the factory. I don't ride it very often 'cos it goes like Stink. Why would any one want one to go any faster! I too rode a CZ in the seventies, a 360 twin port complete with Jikov carb, as Dean said about the side pipe, they seemed almost indestructable. For five seasons all I had to do was adjust points and change the plug occasionally! Fortunately the Griffon doesn't seem to require too much attention either, I've entered it for the next meeting. It will have had no attention since last year, but I bet it will still go better than I can cope with!
Anyway, half the fun of Pre65 is just spending time trying to keep them in good fettle so race days can be enjoyed just for that purpose. I'd be really bored now if I didn't have to spend a few hours between meetings making sure it would hold together for the next one. The bikes are what they are, and we choose our mounts for our own individual reasons. As to value, well I've had more fun out of each of my machines than any money spent in anything else. If they've no value at all I couldn't complain. Long may it be the case! Adrian335