Points v Electronic

[Motorcyclist Colin]

I have just been wrestling with one set of points in my 4T engine (New East Coaster owner) Left set of points were fine and could be cleaned up, and reset to correct gap. The points themselves of the right set however, were not meeting square on, and were not always firing the plug They also had a cracked insulation washer. I dismantled this set(, what a job), cleaned them up and got them to work properly. but decided to order a new set of points and a new "long tail" condenser The guy at Villiers Services, who took my order said "Why not go electronic?"
Personally I like the (relatively) simple arrangement of old fashioned points. and the ability to" fettle" them. I would however welcome the "experts" views on "Points v Electronic" all, the pros and cons. In particular will the electronic gubbins last, and if they fail, I assume it will be instant, and the only solution a new "gubbins"/
Many thanks in advance

[John Wakefield]

Points are fine if kept in adjustment, but as you say the Villiers ones are a complicated arrangement with springs that can fly out etc. There was a modified points set up made by Peter Savage, this used VW car points. I have a set in my East Coaster and they work ok, cant say it makes any difference to starting or performance, but the points are far easier to adjust and change and are are less than 1/2 the price of Villiers ones. I dont think Peter is doing them anymore but you could contact him email p.savage56@btinternet.com or tel 01827 874015. I have no experience in the Electrex World set up marketed by Villiers Services, I am 'old school' and believe in if it worked fine with points then why change it. As you say if electronics fail then its generally a replacement of the whole system, with points as you have found, you can replace the worn or failed bits and sort the problem. Another factor is that the electronic system also replaces the lighting coils, so that may bring with it other issues, some Electrex World systems have found to be low on lighting output!

[tony]

I have electronic ignition on my 325 East Coaster. No fettling - starts easily hot and cold. Very reliable, just depends on your or preference .

[tonyed27]

Remember the days back when in the distant past when to cook food, you had to go out and find wood, make sure it was dry and of course some kindling to light it with, Then spend ages with a flint trying to get a spark to light the fire.
Now you go to a modern cooker and switch it on and it get hot and cooks your food.
Same result in the end, but the time taken with wood and flint, repetitively over numerous meals could have been more productively spent watching daytime TV.
Point (no pun intended) is that the electronic ignition, fitted in a jiffy of time will release so much more of your time and the engines inner happiness and reliabilty.
However if it does mean more daytime TV watching stick to the points, the fettling and keep your sanity.

[KevinLS]

I was always fussy about getting the timing set correctly on my Silverstone, it came from my racing Bantam days when poor timing would consign a piston to the waste bin in a matter of minutes. Oh, and a massive off at the Snetterton Esses with a seizure. Sounds ridiculous but it used to take me about an hour to get the timing as consistent as I wanted it before each meeting. I currently have two engines, one with the original points and one with a CDI system I built. Just for grins, one morning in deepest winter I adjusted the ignition timing on each of them just to compare the ease of adjustment. It took just over 5 minutes with the the CDI system and just over an hour for the points set up. Tony is right.

[John Wakefield]

Yes but both of you are using it on race bikes, this guy and myself are using it on road bikes, I have done 1000's of miles on mine and have not had any problems with points and rarely need to adjust them, so that's good enough for me, I can find something more important to spend 350 quid on! There is also one other thing to consider with a Villiers twin, if the crankshaft has been rebuilt and its a degree or so out of alignment, due to the fixed position of the electronic system that relies on crank pins being exactly 180 degrees opposite, the timing will be out on one cylinder. This also applies to the Pete Savage points conversion as unlike the Villiers system contact brakers are in fixed positions. Maybe Villiers knew a thing or two by making the individually adjustable.

[Motorcyclist Colin]

Thank you Gentlemen. Day time TV is mostly either aimed at women, a repeat of something already seen, or of such mind numbing banality that it would drive me to drink, or worse.
I think it likely I will be happily fettling my points, generally fiddling with any and all of my 9 bikes, for some time to come yet. I also recall the sense of satisfaction when my fettling/fiddling resulted in the bike working as it should.
Now if anyone knows of a way, a senile old goat can get a 1000cc Vin or BM on it's centre stand without help or a hernia, I will be pleased to learn of it..................................and the sooner the better!!
Also the old adage "If it ain't broke don't mend it" "Fettling" is not "mending" it's a passtime for old men with too many bikes and a wife who actually likes mowing the lawns.

[IanCordes]

The attraction of old motorcycles to me is, in part, the way they work, and how they were designed back in the day. We could watch even more daytime TV if we weren't overheating ourselves, trying to kickstart a recalcitrant old beast, when we could buy a modern machine with an electric hoof. Less time kickstarting, more tele....

All of that misses the point, imo (no pun intended....). The points set-up inside a 2/3/4T timing cover belongs to a different age, and for that, is fascinating, if one thinks of the mind of the chap (esses? probably not....) who set it up. It is there for us to master; they did, nearly 70 years ago, so with help from Villiers Services, Britsh Bikes 1970, so forth, it is all part of the challenge.

If your aim is to win races in classic road racing, scrambling etc, you may as well get away with anything the rules will allow; everyone else will. Having recently returned from the Scottish pre-65 2-Day Trial, the evidence of that is abundantly clear. However, if, like most of us, you enjoy fettling/fiddling/riding in a non-competitive way, I think the old way is best; because that is what attracted us in the first place; isn't it?

Caveat- There may be exceptions.....

Ian C.

[iansoady]

With reference to getting bikes on stands - my Norton ES2 is a nightmare, so I knocked up a version of a commercial item which works very well. Made from an old pair of handlebars, a TV aerial bracket (so no daytime TV!) and a bit of plywood. I have a picture somewhere which I will try to post.....

Here it is:

[Motorcyclist Colin]

Ian C. Iagree entirely. I also find, for example, points are fascinating in that it becomes clear how they actually work to produce the spark at the right time. Electronics just do it without any clue as to how, and are thus not at all interesting, to me
Ian S Thanks . My R100 G/S has a sort of roll on centre stand, which (if you/me/one has not modified the bike) works well with a bit of pressure on the stand with a foot, coupled with a pull back on the hand hold. Trouble is I am short so bike has been lowered at the back, so I can get a foot somewhere near the ground when I stop.. I have not shortened the centre stand however, so it (and I) is trying to lift the bike higher. Instead of moaning about it, I will get around to cutting a piece out of the stand legs and re welding.

And before, anyone who knows BM,s comments that they,BMW, never made a R100 G.stroke S, only a R80G/S you are quite right. But I know a man who did! (G/S Gelande/ Strasse) not to be confused with the later GS (Gelande Sport). I am really enjoying my East Coaster as well

[tonyed27]

You could convert it back to a trembler coil, even more hours of fettling.

[iansoady]

Or hot tube. Fit and forget. Till it catches fire......

[IanCordes]

You could convert it back to a trembler coil, even more hours of fettling.

You can't convert it back to what it never had in the first place

[tonyed27]

You can't convert it back to what it never had in the first place

Convert:

1. To change (something) into another form, substance, state, or product; transform.
2. To change (something) from one use, function, or purpose to another; adapt to a new or different purpose.
3. To persuade or induce to adopt a particular religion, faith, or belief.

NOT Revert:

1. To go back to a former condition, practice, subject, or belief.
2. To resume using something that has been disused.
3. To be returned to the former owner or to the former owner's heirs. Used of money or property.

However convert 'Back' you are probably correct as it did not previously exist in that state.

[IanCordes]

Which makes your 6 bullet points entirely irrelevant! As I said, you cannot convert something back to that which it never was! You clearly have got too much time on your hands today. If you had retained points ignition, you could have been in the shed, fiddling, fettling; even learning....?