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Ex works 1961 32DC coming up in Brooklands auction

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  • #1

    Ex works 1961 32DC coming up in Brooklands auction

    REF 217 1961 Greeves Sports Twin 32DC
    http://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2015-06-06/motorcycle/ref-217-1961-greeves-sports-twin-32dc.aspx
    The company founded by Bert Greeves ,MBE  soon after WW2 was the same Invacar company that won a major contract to provide motorised, three-wheeled, invalid carriage vehicles to the UK Government Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance. The invalid carriages sold well and established a firm foundation for the factory, based in Essex. The factory possessed its own foundry and very soon, became expert in the new technology of fibreglass moulding. The invalid cars featured some innovative designs, notably suspension by rubber bushes that acted as self-damping springs when twisted. As a keen trials rider, Bert Greeves soon indulged his interest and started to build motorcycles for trials and scrambles, and in 1954, a roadster joined the range. Using Villiers or British Anzani engines, and suspension based on the invalid cars' rubber units, the frames illustrated another Greeves innovation. In place of the normal tubular front section and steering head was a single enormously strong aluminium alloy H-section beam. Roadster production centred on a range of modest 250 and 325cc lightweight twins. By the 1960s, the Sports Twins had become probably the best of their kind, thanks to Greeves handling and quality build. An indication of the regard in which they were held was their adoption as police bikes. In 1960, Sales Manager Derry Preston Cobb conceived a publicity stunt for the latest Greeves roadsters, in which TV actor and motorcycle enthusiast, Richard Wyler (famed for the TV Series The Man from Interpol) and road racer Joe Dunphy, would tour as many European cities as possible in eight days, on the bikes provided by Greeves. A brand new 32DC, 171 VEV, was taken off the production line to join the press 32DC, 950 UNO, for the trip. Despite some mishaps the trip was successfully completed and was featured in the March 23rd and 30th editions of Motor Cycling. After the trip, 171 VEV was retained by the factory as Bert Greeves' personal machine and was used to try out developments as they came along, which explains why the bike is fitted with some later fibreglass parts. These are however very much a part of the bike's history and the vendor has resisted restoring the bike to standard form because of that. 171 VEV has been part of a large collection of British two stroke machines for the past thirty years and comes with; V5, the original log book (showing Invacar Ltd as first owner) and various documents confirming its identity. The vendor informs us the Greeves is in sound running condition though it would now benefit from some light renovation. This Greeves Sports Twin represents a rare opportunity to purchase a fine British lightweight with a unique history.

    This 32DC is coming up in the Historics of Brooklands auction on Sat. 6th June. Its 171 VEV Frame number is 61/3595 the bike that Joe Dunphy rode to Milan in 1961
    Looks like its gone through a few changes since 1961, fibreglass tank mudguards & spats from an Essex (apparently fitted later at the factory) the seat is in a tatty condition. 171 VEV has been part of a large collection of British two stroke machines for the past thirty years according to the auctioneers spiel. Estimate £2500 to £3000
    Last edited by John Wakefield; 03/06/2018, 10:24 PM. Reason: Joe Dunphys bike nor Richard Wyler
    Tags: None
  • #2
    There was an article Wyler and Dunphy's European Tour in LL 158 (April 2011), in the article it was stated that both 950 UNO (the other 32DC ridden by Richard Wyler) and 171 VEV were last seen together at the Greeves 50th Anniversary celebrations at Battlesbridge in 2003.
    Last edited by John Wakefield; 03/06/2018, 10:26 PM.

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    • #3
      1961 32dc

      Looks like more than "light restoration" if you want to return the bike back to when it was ridden across Europe, the wheels are also later than the paddle hubs originally fitted.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by shelly View Post
        Looks like more than "light restoration" if you want to return the bike back to when it was ridden across Europe, the wheels are also later than the paddle hubs originally fitted.
        Quite so, in effect the bike has been changed from a 32DC to a 32DD Essex.
        This statement by auctioneers takes a bit of believing unless proved.
        After the trip, 171 VEV was retained by the factory as Bert Greeves' personal machine and was used to try out developments as they came along, which explains why the bike is fitted with some later fibreglass parts. These are however very much a part of the bike's history and the vendor has resisted restoring the bike to standard form because of that.
        The provenance & value is in the bike being connected to Joe Dunphy & the European trip, as an Essex look alike its just another Greeves, & with the fibreglass tank it is now unusable owing to the ethanol content of petrol that will dissolve the tank. Apparently the owner of the bike is Dave Benson a former GRA member
        Last edited by John Wakefield; 03/06/2018, 10:11 PM.

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        • #5
          171 VEV Auction result

          The bike sold for a massive £4,200 plus 10% buyers commission & VAT on commission = £4704 a lot for an unrestored bike.
          One other point, the frame number 61/3595 (obtained from an HPI check web site) appears on another bike a 25DC registered 863 BXV. https://www.flickr.com/photos/welshh...n/17670533873/ So which one is a ringer? Of course I suppose it could be a DVLA typo or a Greeves duplicate stamping. BXV is a London series mark issued in June 1960 so looks an original registration.
          Last edited by John Wakefield; 30/06/2015, 11:06 AM.

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          • #6
            Ref sale of 717 VEV

            Further to John's comments ref,863 BXV, I owned this machine from 1997 until I sold it to a close friend in May 2004 he is still the present owner, It has been taxed,MOTed and ridden each year during this time (only yesterday completed the Coast to Coast run Lyme Regis to Burnham on Sea a round trip of approx.260 miles) We feel sure our frame number is correct, Some meddling has taken place somewhere.So much for buying provenance. Just a bit of history which might interest someone. Les.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by mayfield View Post
              Further to John's comments ref,863 BXV, I owned this machine from 1997 until I sold it to a close friend in May 2004 he is still the present owner, It has been taxed,MOTed and ridden each year during this time (only yesterday completed the Coast to Coast run Lyme Regis to Burnham on Sea a round trip of approx.260 miles) We feel sure our frame number is correct, Some meddling has taken place somewhere.So much for buying provenance. Just a bit of history which might interest someone. Les.
              Might be worth asking your friend to check the actual number, may be a typo by DVLA. I got it from a web site which is linked to DVLA. The only difference I spotted was that on 171 VEV its shown as 613595 (no forward slash) although the auctioneers list it as 61/3595. On 863 BXV its 61/3595 (with forward slash) in the usual Greeves format.
              Please let us know the outcome Les.
              Last edited by John Wakefield; 30/06/2015, 07:31 PM.

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              • #8
                61/3595 was a 32DC dispatched to a London dealer on 24th February 1961. The record shows a note "For sidecar use".

                Wyler and Dunphy left on their trip on 27th February 1961.

                There are gaps in the 32DC frame number dispatch sequence at about that time.

                A 32DC was pulled off the production line in a tearing hurry for the trip because the press 25DC they were going to use suddenly became unavailable.

                I reckon it's a factory muck-up - they just bashed what they thought was the next available number onto what would become 171 VEV.

                So both bikes are entitled to that frame number and neither is a ringer.

                Anyone know the engine numbers of 171 VEV and 863 BXV? Might help to clarify further. Although if 863 BXV subsequently acquired a 2T, it won't have the original engine anyway...
                Colin Sparrow

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                • #9
                  Frame number duplication

                  Engine number for 171 VEV (according to auctioneers http://www.historics.co.uk/buying/au...twin-32dc.aspx) is 222D1367 (a 3T)
                  Looks a reasonable assumption of whats happened.
                  Last edited by John Wakefield; 01/07/2015, 09:18 AM.

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                  • #10
                    863 bxv

                    How interesting ref.for sidecar use, the alloy beam on this bike has an approx. half inch hole with a location slot through it.I will get it's engine number and also check for a dash in the frame number. Thanks Les.

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                    • #11
                      Looks like egg on face again! be interesting to find out the truth behind this latest situation, this has happened before with the factory records and stamping of machines

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                      • #12
                        222D 1367 is not the engine allocated to the 32DC 61/3595 which appears in the dispatch records although it is within twenty of it. Greeves didn't fit their engines in numerical sequence anyway.

                        222D 1367 does not appear in the dispatch record for the early 32DCs, but it is right for an engine allocated in February 1961, so 171VEV never made it to the dispatch record - which is only natural if it was never dispatched because the factory retained it.

                        Anyway they could hardly sell it as a new bike once it had been thrashed round Europe and Brands Hatch. But 171VEV clearly has its original engine.

                        By the beginning of March 1961 Greeves had used up their 222D13** engines and had moved on to 222D14** units.
                        Colin Sparrow

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                        • #13
                          863 bxv

                          Further to details of above bike, Engine No.is 222D1342 and has been since before my ownership, Frame No.61/3595( yes it has the forward slash) There were 5 previous owners before myself. Les.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by mayfield View Post
                            Further to details of above bike, Engine No.is 222D1342 and has been since before my ownership, Frame No.61/3595( yes it has the forward slash) There were 5 previous owners before myself. Les.
                            Yes a 3T engine & it ties in with what Colin has stated so looks the original. Thing is is it still a 325 or did someone downsize it to 250 a few years ago when the tax on a 325 would be more than a 250? Lots of bikes were declared 'downsized' to 250 when in fact nothing had been done to the engine itself. The licencing authorities of the day never queried it. It is possible though to swop the top end of a 2T to 3T

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                            • #15
                              That is the original engine number.

                              It is possible of course that the engine number plate, or indeed the chaincase inner was changed if a 2T was fitted - can't really see the point though.

                              Perhaps John's right and the barrels and pistons were swapped for 2T components. Might pay the current owner to whip a head off and measure the bore: 2T: 50mm, 3T: 57mm
                              Last edited by Colin Sparrow; 03/07/2015, 12:04 PM.
                              Colin Sparrow

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