New member - Strawberry scented 2 stroke oil

[Martin H]

Hi All,
Just bought myself a Greeves Hawkstone so I read all the threads on what oil would be best added to the petrol. Even though Colin (Thanks for the fantastic calendar a couple of years ago) uses fully synthetic, I had decided to use the Castrol Adevco. It is £7.50 a litre in Tesco......don't start on cheaper places...I am unlikely to use lots, so 1L will do to start with. However, I went the the local big modern bike store (P&H in Crawley and they have fully synthetic Putoline that has strawberry scent added.....how cool is that ...and only £8.15 / 1L Obviously I need help (in more ways than one) so expect a few strings from a newbie Greeves owner. Cheers to all, Martin

[Kim275]

Hi Martin and welcome to the Greeves community.............clearly you will need help with a strawberry flavoured hawkstone . Personally i prefer the man musk of Castrol R40

Main thing with a Greeves, as with any racing 2-stroke is not to skimp on the mix - [I use 20 to 1 with a non synthetic] - this will give you not only reliability - but also more power - according to Graham Bells 2-stroke tuning book - In his tests he gets more power out of a richer mixture.
Cheers Kim

[Andy Z]

Hi Martin and welcome to the Greeves community.............clearly you will need help with a strawberry flavoured hawkstone . Personally i prefer the man musk of Castrol R40

Main thing with a Greeves, as with any racing 2-stroke is not to skimp on the mix - [I use 20 to 1 with a non synthetic] - this will give you not only reliability - but also more power - according to Graham Bells 2-stroke tuning book - In his tests he gets more power out of a richer mixture.
Cheers Kim

Spot-on Kim!

The myth that 50:1 mixtures or leaner give more power has been going for years, when various tests have show the opposite. There's a great article by Gordon Jennings on the subject:

http://www.bridgestonemotorcycle.com/documents/oilpremix6.pdf

Cheers,
Andrew
#190

[Martin H]

Hi All,

I agree a bit of manly Castrol R is preferred.....

Correct me if I am wrong but 50 : 1 is richer (in petrol) than 20:1
50 parts of petrol plus 1 part oil = 1/51 x100 = 1.96% oil in 98.04% petrol
20 parts petrol plus 1 part oil = 1/21x100 = 4.8% oil in 95.2% petrol
Or do you refer to the richness/leanness of the oil rather than the petrol content. ie more oil = more power?
Thanks for the info
Regards
Martin

[Andy Z]

Hi All,

I agree a bit of manly Castrol R is preferred.....

Correct me if I am wrong but 50 : 1 is richer (in petrol) than 20:1
50 parts of petrol plus 1 part oil = 1/51 x100 = 1.96% oil in 98.04% petrol
20 parts petrol plus 1 part oil = 1/21x100 = 4.8% oil in 95.2% petrol
Or do you refer to the richness/leanness of the oil rather than the petrol content. ie more oil = more power?
Thanks for the info
Regards
Martin

Hi Martin,

We're only referring to the oil content.

The higher levels of oil were found to give more power, but obviously the jetting had to be adjusted to keep the petrol-air mixture correct.

In fact, what Greeves suggested originally for the Challenger, 16:1, was probably about right. Great for lubrication and power, but also great for gumming-up piston rings!

Overall though, the more you study Greeves, the more you realise that they really knew a thing or two about 2-strokes!

Cheers,
Andrew
#190

[John Wakefield]

16:1, was probably about right. Great for lubrication and power, but also great for gumming-up piston rings!

Not so according to the tests conducted by Gordon Jennings, the higher the oil content the cleaner the piston

[Andy Z]

Not so according to the tests conducted by Gordon Jennings, the higher the oil content the cleaner the piston

You're quite right John, I misquoted Gordon Jennings on that point. It was the spark plug which gets fouled more when the oil percentage is increased. The deposits normally associated with castor oil were less at 15:1 than 30:1!

[Kim275]

Some good myth dispelling stuff here !! We are all learning more each season !!....

-Clearly in tests R40 and richer (oil) you can get away with the better appears to be the way to go ....and better for racing than synthetic ....which is geared for production engines where ease of maintenance is the priority over power..........

I am going to go with 20:1 R40 for my MDS and big Griff (QUB 380) .......and 20:1 synthetic (Rockoil) on my little Griff (250).......and when I get a chance to strip (i.e next time it goes bang) I will convert little Griff to R40.

Another tip I spotted from Graham Bell is that putting a 30 deg (shallow) shamfer on the piston skirt edge - assists in oiling the bore - so I am thinking of doing that on my pistons - anybody done this?

Re Gumming up - yes it is Plugs of course ......but then we should check those each meet anyway............on Rings - there should be no problem - but note that Dykes rings - if you have one on top piston edge (allegedly) are more susceptible to sticking - although I have never had a problem. Normal 2 ring - no issues.

Martin - Be aware of R40 hydroscopic properties ...and its reaction to synthetics (if you change frpm one to another0 (its only drawbacks).

I would recommend buy in small quantities - as it goes off with exposure to air as it absorbs moisture content. My Dad gave me a tin he found of R40..dating back to 1965......I keep it in the Garage with the lid firmly on

Bring on the new Season
p.s Adrian D uses R40 for every thing on his Hawkstone.e.g - 2-stroke , gearbox and clutch oil .......and I suspect many other household uses.... including hair gel and aftershave maybe !!??...

[Brian Catt]

My Dad gave me a tin he found of R40..dating back to 1965......I keep it in the Garage with the lid firmly on

Put it in the deep fat fryer and boil the water out.....

[Kim275]

My Dad gave me a tin he found of R40..dating back to 1965......I keep it in the Garage with the lid firmly on

Put it in the deep fat fryer and boil the water out.....

Nice tip Brian ...and then I can use it !! will save me a couple of quid

[Andy Z]

Some good myth dispelling stuff here !! We are all learning more each season !!....

-Clearly in tests R40 and richer (oil) you can get away with the better appears to be the way to go ....and better for racing than synthetic ....which is geared for production engines where ease of maintenance is the priority over power..........

I am going to go with 20:1 R40 for my MDS and big Griff (QUB 380) .......and 20:1 synthetic (Rockoil) on my little Griff (250).......and when I get a chance to strip (i.e next time it goes bang) I will convert little Griff to R40.

Another tip I spotted from Graham Bell is that putting a 30 deg (shallow) shamfer on the piston skirt edge - assists in oiling the bore - so I am thinking of doing that on my pistons - anybody done this?

Re Gumming up - yes it is Plugs of course ......but then we should check those each meet anyway............on Rings - there should be no problem - but note that Dykes rings - if you have one on top piston edge (allegedly) are more susceptible to sticking - although I have never had a problem. Normal 2 ring - no issues.

Martin - Be aware of R40 hydroscopic properties ...and its reaction to synthetics (if you change frpm one to another0 (its only drawbacks).

I would recommend buy in small quantities - as it goes off with exposure to air as it absorbs moisture content. My Dad gave me a tin he found of R40..dating back to 1965......I keep it in the Garage with the lid firmly on

Bring on the new Season
p.s Adrian D uses R40 for every thing on his Hawkstone.e.g - 2-stroke , gearbox and clutch oil .......and I suspect many other household uses.... including hair gel and aftershave maybe !!??...

Hi Kim,

I have a chamferred piston in the 360. The old piston in the 360 had a chamfer, and I had read the Bell book so the new piston got the chamfer treatment. No sign of seizure marks anywhere, and I tend to thrash the conkers off the poor old thing! It has to carry my bulk, you see....

I use Shell racing M castor oil - when mixed with petrol it degrades pretty quickly - when it turns orangey-brown its no good.

Therein lies the main problem with castor-based oils - after a days racing you always end up with some scrap pre-mix. What do people do with it? I use it to clean the chain!

As for aftershave, I always end up stinking of castor oil after every meeting - I'll have to ask the Mrs if she likes it!!

Cheers,
Andrew
#190

[Brian Catt]

Chips will be good after....

[Rob]

Easy one on the oil - keep adding more until it stops seizing! Seriously though, rings do gum with R and that was one of the only occasions my Silverstone let me down. I ran that on 20:1 and used to lift the barrel and clean the ring grooves every 2 meetings. I got lazy once and didn't bother and it rewarded me by breaking the ring. The only other time it let me down was when the rubber band holding the coil connector on perished and the wire fell off - honest!

We tend to run the 250 Griffon on synthetic and my poor old Hawkstone usually gets leftovers from the TZ Yam road racer which is 40% avgas, 60% Optimax and 32:1 Castrol A747 or Silkolene Pro 2. We haven't managed to seize either yet (famous last words!) (Mind you, the Yam blew itself to bits flat out at Silverstone last season but I think that was a piston break-up as the whole lot including half of the conrod ended up in the exhaust!)

Martin - if you are in Crawley, you are midway between Kim and myself.

Cheers,

Rob

[John Wakefield]

Two stroke oils & ratios

One thing to remember about Gordon Jennings test is that (a) It was conducted in 1978, & only using castor based oil, there are possibly better suited oils these days that would give different results.
(b) These tests were applicable to racing engines. As far as road bikes are concerned other factors like smoke emmissions & plug fouling need to be taken into consideration. So maybe a compromise mix using modern non synthetic oils would be around 24:1 for a standard road going Villiers engine.
As I have said on here before, I use 24:1 non synthetic (Comma Two Stroke) in my 4T & it runs well. Not a lot of smoke & no plug oiling. I do though occasionally get plug wiskering if the engine is worked hard on a hill.
To sum up I think the Villiers recomended ratio of 20:1 is still applicable today if you want to get the best performance & longetivity of your engine.
The old saying "oil is cheaper than bearings" still holds good.

[Andy Z]

One thing to remember about Gordon Jennings test is that (a) It was conducted in 1978, & only using castor based oil, there are possibly better suited oils these days that would give different results.
(b) These tests were applicable to racing engines. As far as road bikes are concerned other factors like smoke emmissions & plug fouling need to be taken into consideration. So maybe a compromise mix using modern non synthetic oils would be around 24:1 for a standard road going Villiers engine.
As I have said on here before, I use 24:1 non synthetic (Comma Two Stroke) in my 4T & it runs well. Not a lot of smoke & no plug oiling. I do though occasionally get ply wiskering if the engine is worked hard on a hill.
To sum up I think the Villiers recomended ratio of 20:1 is still applicable today if you want to get the best performance & longetivity of your engine.
The old saying "oil is cheaper than bearings" still holds good.

Hi John,

Good point, all the discussion so far only applies to racing engines. Castor oil is useless in a road going 2-stroke unless you want to drain the tank after every ride and make fresh premix every day. I'm certain that a traditional, non-synthetic oil such as the Comma at 24:1 is more suitable for road-going Villiers engines than a synthetic at 50:1.

These old engines need more oil than modern 2-strokes for various reasons; small-end bushes, long pistons, iron barrels etc....

Also, if modern ashless 2-stroke oils are used at higher concentrations than recommended, they may actually cause formation of harmful deposits in the engine. This was another Jennings finding.
So using a synthetic 2-stroke oil with a hi-tech additive package at 20:1 may cause a lot of trouble.

Just to complicate things, there are special racing synthetics which are designed to be run at 24:1 or so.

Its not surprising that there is so much discussion about oil - there are so many choices and sometimes not that obvious which choice to make.


Cheers,
Andrew
#190