Spacers for 1960 Scottish 24tcs

[Bernie]

I'm told that there is a "spacers" chart, somewhere on these forums. Does anyone know where it is please? I'd like to know the dimensions of spacers for my Trials, so that I could get things right like wheel alignment, engine, frame, etc. I've seen spares advertised, but have no idea what they're for.
the reason I'm a bit stuck, is because the bike I have, had a Triumph twin engine, which was removed before I bought it. Consequently many things are missing, or incorrect.

[John Wakefield]

The spacers thread is in the GRA Member area https://www.greeves-riders.org.uk/fo...fo-post-1-of-3 which as a Basic you will not be able to see. However I have attached the relevant spacer charts here, They are listed as for road bikes but apparently also apply to off road bikes, not sure how you identify the off road models, presumably the same as the road singles.

UPDATE
At the request of Brian Thompson I have removed the two spacer diagrams relating to roadsters which he does not want to be in the members area. However I have now found the following in my own archives relating to spacers on the TA which may be more appropriate to Bernies request.

[Brian Thompson]

The spacers thread is in the GRA Member area https://www.greeves-riders.org.uk/fo...fo-post-1-of-3 which as a Basic you will not be able to see. However I have attached the relevant spacer charts here, They are listed as for road bikes but apparently also apply to off road bikes, not sure how you identify the off road models, presumably the same as the road singles.

Chaps, if I may....

As the person who researched, compiled, in some case paid for drawings, digitally cleaned up and scanned them then wrote-up and posted all the relevant information in that thread, in good faith and for the benefit of GRA members, I'd like to say this....

1. At the time of posting, it was agreed that detailed information of this kind should be posted in the Members Only area for reasons that should be obvious to all. If that position has changed, then so be it, but I haven't seen anything to the contrary at this point. Those matters are above my pay grade these days, regardless....

2. That thread contains every scrap of information on OEM/factory fitted Greeves frame spacers that I was able to dig up and I doubt very much that much more exists, excluding Triumph Greeves and/or 'Specials'.

3. I clearly explain in my thread how to use the information/charts to identify spacers for off-road bikes, which involves reference to the relevant Factory Parts Book for the model in question. I have also scanned and uploaded several of these, once again in the Members Only area, so there is a strong possibility that info is available too, which at todays prices for an original copy may even cover the cost of GRA Membership.

4. I have uploaded and shared a huge amount of information on Greeves Scottish models in the members only areas and I'm confident there's enough there to cover most aspects of the restoration of these models regarding cycle parts, and a lot more besides.

Brian.

[trialrider17]

Well said Brian , Simon

[Phil Hyde]

Indeed Brian. Well said, Phil

[IanCordes]

Quote :- 'it was agreed that detailed information of this kind should be posted in the Members Only area for reasons that should be obvious to all.'
Absolutely Brian, and there is no need which I can see for it to change.

Ian C.

[John Wakefield]

Problem is that many BASIC forum members are actually full members and dont know how to get upgraded to full member thus being unable to see members area. I understand that the GRA Committee are now sorting this out. As for the spacer diagrams,these have been in the public domain (including Facebook) for some time, a former GRA member having posted many Greeves drawings on one particular group, they have been copied and posted may times. Also the spacer diagrams are not as such official Greeves drawings, no where on them is there a Greeves logo or copyright.

[tonyed27]

What is the difference then between a 'basic' user and a 'full' member. When I joined I payed the required subscription fee but am still only a basic user. How do I 'upgrade'?

[John Wakefield]

What is the difference then between a 'basic' user and a 'full' member. When I joined I payed the required subscription fee but am still only a basic user. How do I 'upgrade'?

A BASIC is just someone who joins the forum, they cant access members only area,a full member is a paid up GRA member You need to initially contact the membership sec. Andy Barnett, he then checks you are a paid up member and instructs the web master to upgrade you on the forum.

[tonyed27]

How dose one contact Andy Barnett? There appears to be no contact information other than a general form in 'Contact'.

[John Wakefield]

How dose one contact Andy Barnett? There appears to be no contact information other than a general form in 'Contact'.

Andy's contact details are in Leading Link

[Brian Thompson]

I thought I'd been very clear in my post regarding my concerns....obviously not, so I'll take each of your points in turn John before adding my response.....

To reiterate, as the person who researched, compiled, in some case paid for drawings, digitally cleaned up and scanned them then wrote-up and posted all the relevant information in the thread linked to above, posted in the Members Only area in good faith and for the benefit of GRA members, I have now confirmed that the above scans you have posted are copied from my thread. I just want to make that crystal clear before I move on.....

Problem is that many BASIC forum members are actually full members and don't know how to get upgraded to full member thus being unable to see members area. I understand that the GRA Committee are now sorting this out.

So, from this comment am I to understand that you have taken it upon yourself to copy and re-post material that I have personally sourced, worked on and posted in good faith, due to the fact that paid up GRA Members are unable to access them due to still being Basic Members? This despite the fact that you have been informed that this matter is currently being addressed by the GRA Committee?

As for the spacer diagrams, these have been in the public domain (including Facebook) for some time, a former GRA member having posted many Greeves drawings on one particular group, they have been copied and posted may times.

I'm very sad to hear this as frankly, and speaking broadly, I find it hard to reconcile how this could be in the club's interests, but perhaps that's just my opinion.... However, I do hope that none of them are scans I have posted on here as I have always tried to be careful (and very happy) to follow the letter and spirit of the GRA's Constitution throughout my involvement with the club, seeking guidance and clarification from more experienced and senior members at the time and whenever required to always ensure I was doing so. I wanted to be 'part of the solution, not part of the problem' in my approach.

As for Facebook.....referring to the organisation as a whole, I think my views on that tragic cess pit of hubris, narcissism and human exploitation in the name of profit are well known to most people on this forum. It has always been stated by those involved with it that the 'Greeves Enthusiasts' FB page was supposed to be a 'complimentary' resource, so I can only hope that there is effective moderation occurring on that page at least, to ensure that the clubs interests are being upheld. I don't 'do' Facebook, obviously, so beyond that I have little more to add. If ex members are doing as you say on their pages then that is a matter for others to consider and none of my concern. However....if someone on Facebook told me put my hand into a fire, guess what!!.....personally, I wouldn't do it.....even if people said to me 'yeah...but everyone else is doing it...'

Also the spacer diagrams are not as such official Greeves drawings, no where on them is there a Greeves logo or copyright.

Do you know that for a FACT John? I took my scan from an old issue of 'Leading Link' (I can't remember which issue but it wouldn't take me long to confirm) and I think you'll find that careful examination of the font used for the table is very similar to many other Greeves factory publications. The other table (with the frame illustration) is open to debate, but my money is on it being 'Greeves' as well, once again due to the typeface font. I'm willing to stand corrected on the last point (always happy to learn), but stand by my knowledge and experience as a fully qualified printer and graphic designer in a previous life...one of many. Lastly, MANY original Greeves documentation items have no logo or copyright information on display!!! Would you like a few links to some examples on here to confirm it? Besides, is that really the point here....?

To conclude.....and to refer to my original post on this thread.....

No John, THIS is the problem.....You have copied and pasted material I have taken time and trouble to originate and post in the GRA Members Only area of the forum meaning that it is now in the public domain. This was not my intention for this material when I originally posted it, once again, for reasons that should be obvious to all. Above all, it wasn't done to be 'mean'....but to respect and protect the interests of the club and it's members whilst also, hopefully, helping to develop them. I'd like to add that I always made sure I had 'clearance' with this kind of material too, prior to posting, and rightly so in my opinion.

You have done this without my consent (and not for the first time....) and I am not happy about it.

Brian.

[John Wakefield]

Brian
Does it really matter if these diagrams get copied, and more to the point they have no copy-write mark so it would be difficult to prove who's copy-write they are. Looks like someone in the past found the info and put it in Leading Link, they are not the crown jewels and if they help owners (members or not) to rebuild a bike then so much the good. .

[Brian Thompson]

Brian
Does it really matter if these diagrams get copied, and more to the point they have no copy-write mark so it would be difficult to prove who's copy-write they are.

Firstly, I refer you to my original post (post #3) and my first point;

1. At the time of posting, it was agreed that detailed information of this kind should be posted in the Members Only area for reasons that should be obvious to all. If that position has changed, then so be it, but I haven't seen anything to the contrary at this point. Those matters are above my pay grade these days, regardless....

So why are you asking ME? If this is what was agreed by the committee and wider membership of the GRA, shouldn't you be asking THEM before taking it upon yourself to go against their position?

Looks like someone in the past found the info and put it in Leading Link, they are not the crown jewels....

But what if you don't have (and can't find) a back issue of Leading Link with the info you need? I'm fortunate to say that my personal collection starts with issue #1 and I took a lot of time, effort (and in some cases actual money) to compile. Not every club member is so lucky to enjoy this particular resource and the ability to share this kind of information online was but one of the many advantages Rob Thornton and I discussed when we plotted the forums creation back in the day. Rob always had a very clear vision for the forum and, let us never forget his stewardship and dedication to the 'factory drawings project' and the countless hours and years he put into deciphering and organising them into some semblance of order for ease of reference (I cannot overstate this, as I'm sure Garry would attest), never mind all the trips to the post office as Rob supplied copies to GRA Members all over the world. None of us would be the position we are in now, especially in regard to Greeves factory drawings (and the forum!!) without Rob Thornton's hard work, generosity and clubmanship. I couldn't not mention Chris Goodfellow here too (especially re factory drawings...!!) and his epic 'save' back in the day.....I miss those guys. The truth is this goes back way before the forum or even the flippin' internet (!), and it's important to acknowledge what the club and it's members have preserved and catalogued over many years, an achievement in itself. If you are restoring a Greeves or have an interest in the marque, why wouldn't you join the club and gain full access to it's benefits and resources?!! Personally, I always saw my GRA membership fee as simply covering the cost of my always excellent 'Leading Link' club magazine anyway, meaning anything else was literally a bonus! I would like to think that full access to the forum and the wealth of info shared by members on here is but one of the many, and obviously I've tried to do my bit to make sure it is with the content I've posted.

Regarding any claims to copyright, I can only once again refer you to Point 1. above.

Further, I have never made any claim of personal 'ownership' of any material I have posted on this forum, but I DO take ownership of my responsibilities towards the GRA, it's committee and wider membership by respecting it's wishes, which I also happen to fully support and agree with in this regard. I also take ownership of all the time, effort and expense I expended in researching Greeves material over the years, as well as my personal choice to freely share it with club members as I have on the forum, in the area of the forum as agreed to be appropriate, and with all due deference and full regard to the clubs policies and requirements. If you had tracked down hard copies, scanned them, cleaned them up digitally, researched relevant supporting info then typed it all up to post where you see fit, then that would be entirely your call....feel free....that would be none of my concern, but others may feel differently, clearly.

So....are they the crown jewels?

Not my call, but I'll say this.....to me they were like gold dust when I needed them, and I'm very grateful to the GRA for making them available to me as a club member.

.....and if they help owners (members or not) to rebuild a bike then so much the good. .

Yes John, but I chose to post the material I compiled in the appropriate GRA MEMBERS AREA of the forum FOR THE BENEFIT OF GRA MEMBERS.

If it helps a GRA MEMBER rebuild a bike then so much the good....THAT IS WHY I POSTED IT IN THE FIRST PLACE! This is the GRA FORUM!!

I'm not happy about it being copied and re-posted in a public area of the forum, which is what you have done.

I have stated my reasons why.

Brian.

[John Wakefield]

OK Brian, I have now removed the 2 spacer diagrams that I copied from your post and replaced them with 3 probably more appropriate ones from my own archives.