Numbers are Important

[John Wakefield]

Having just read Colin Sparrow's piece in LL 223 regarding the DVLA's insistence that bikes (and other vehicles) must have the original VIN plate or stamped number in place. I would like to add the subject of bikes that have been re engined with a non original make of engine. I have recently heard from an owner of an MX4 who having bought the bike as a rolling chassis with the original and correct unmolested stamped frame number, has failed to get an age related number on the bike after fitting a BSA B40 engine. The DVLA deemed it too far modified from the original bike and issued a Q plate, a new DVLA generated 17 digit VIN number, and the bike could not be registered as a Greeves, in this case its a Grebsa. This also means that the bike is subject to a £45 annual taxation fee, will require an annual MoT and will not qualify for low rate classic insurance.
So anyone considering a new build Tri Greeves (or other engine make) needs to consider this before they proceed.

[John Wakefield]

This is the very smart BSA B40 engined Greeves mentioned above built by John Duxbury and now registered on a Q plate. Q548OCY

[John Wakefield]

The bike is now for sale by John Duxbury, he is asking ?4520 pity about the Q plate

[IanCordes]

This sounds like a bit of a disaster for the owner. One wonders why he is selling it, so soon after the build & registration?

I am a bit surprised, as my understanding is that DVLA use a points system for original parts. It has original frame, forks, wheels, suspension, tank, seat etc, and a B40 engine would have been in period. How did he go about registering it? Had he registered it with an original engine (borrowed from a mate? I never said that....) then registered a change of engine to 350cc, I doubt DVLA would have raised an eyebrow......

[John Wakefield]

This sounds like a bit of a disaster for the owner. One wonders why he is selling it, so soon after the build & registration?

I am a bit surprised, as my understanding is that DVLA use a points system for original parts. It has original frame, forks, wheels, suspension, tank, seat etc, and a B40 engine would have been in period. How did he go about registering it? Had he registered it with an original engine (borrowed from a mate? I never said that....) then registered a change of engine to 350cc, I doubt DVLA would have raised an eyebrow......

Ian I have spoken to John the owner about this, apparently he applied to the GRA for a dating cert so as to get an age related reg number from DVLA but GRA refused to issue one as it did not have the original make of engine. As you say DVLA use a points system and I am sure an engine change on its own does not score enough points to warrant a Q plate and a new DVLA VIN number Where does this leave all the Grumphs that are road registered!

This is the DVLA ruling on rebuilt vehicles, looking at this the bike looks well qualified to retain its original identity and be registered as Historic on on an age related number. Obviously being a scrambler it did not have an original registration number.

Keep a vehicle’s original registration number

A rebuilt vehicle can keep its original registration number if you can prove you’ve used:

• the original unmodified chassis or bodyshell (car or light van)
• a new chassis or monocoque bodyshell of the same specification as the original (car or light van)
• the original unmodified frame (motorbike)
• a new frame of the same specification as the original (motorbike)

You must also have 2 other major components from the original vehicle from the following lists.

For cars or light vans:

• suspension (front and back)
• steering assembly
• axles (both)
• transmission
• engine

For motorbikes:

• forks
• wheels
• engine
• gear box

[PeterJGreig]

Why wouldn't or couldn't a dating certificate be issued for a rolling chassis without an engine? Peter.

[IanCordes]

If you check on the DVLA website Peter, you will see that a machine has to be complete in order to be registered. Therefore there is no mileage in issuing a dating certificate for an incomplete machine. It is just a waste of time, effort and expense for all involved, as it will achieve nothing.

As I mentioned previously, the way to get round this in my view is to register it complete with an original-type engine, then notify a change of engine/capacity once the replacement engine has been installed.