Glass fibre petrol tanks and problems with Ethanol in pump fuel.

[Colin Sparrow]

Bob Horton, a member from Beds, brought a replica Silverstone tank that he has made in alloy to the AGM. It looked pretty good and was half the weight of the original.

He is able to copy any Greeves GRP tank so long as he has an original as a pattern. He advertises in Leading Link: B.C. Eng / Bikeshed.

He's writing it up for June Leading Link.

[greeves246]

Texaco super will have no ethanol!!!!! In

[156trials]

Fibreglass fuel tanks (FBHVC statement)

"We have been contacted by a number of motorcycle clubs, and in particular the Greeves Riders Association, whose members have been experiencing problems with fibreglass fuel tanks on their machines thought to be caused by using biofuel. Some composite tanks are compatible with petrol containing ethanol, while others are not. A CONCAWE report, number 3/08, covers this issue and has indicated that fibreglass reinforced polyester and fibreglass reinforced epoxy resin materials are not compatible with petrol containing ethanol. However, tanks made from fibreglass reinforced plastic are compatible with petrol containing ethanol.

One suggestion that has been received concerns the use of a tank sealant to protect the fibreglass. Great care must be taken using tank sealants, of course, as it is known that they are not all compatible with ethanol in petrol. In October 2010 while certainly not advocating that anyone did try this, we did ask if anyone has already had first-hand experience of using such a product in their fuel tank to combat this problem but have had no replies so far.

At the present time (March 2010) replacing the fuel tank with a remanufactured item in a compatible material is the only guaranteed long term solution. There are sealants available which claim to be compatible with bio-fuel but they are generally not for use in fibreglass tanks. No products have been tested by the FBHVC and no recommendations can be made at this stage."

It seems from the above statement posted on the FBHVC web site, that there is still not a great deal of understanding as to the reasons why GRP tanks are likely to fail when used with current fuels, or how to go about properly repairing a tank already corroded by such fuels!

The methods and materials required to produce high quality composite tanks, which are compatible with all common pump fuels, are well known, as they have been used for many years to produce underground fuel storage tanks, of the type used at many filling stations.

This seems to suggest there is little reason for recently made GRP tanks to fail, and maybe what is needed is some sort of approved standard related to materials and construction methods, which may well reduce the ongoing instances of failure related to recently made tanks?

[djbgreeves]

Tank Sealant - Help required

My East Coaster tank has been sealed with TCP sealant and initially it looked perfect with a smooth cream plastic coating on the inside. Alas it is now starting to lift off to reveal a sticky mixture underneath. So far I have removed several largish pieces of resin sheet from inside the tank. I've spoken to TCP who say it is a curing problem caused by poor mixing. This is the second time the tank has been treated with TCP as the first treament wouldn't cure at all. Although not done by me, I am confident that the mixing was thorough, especially the second time around as TCP said this was the reason for failure first time. I think that there is probably some other reason. Has anyone had a similar experience? All suggestions & recommendations welcome.

[John Wakefield]

Tank sealer

You dont need a sealer in an East Coaster tank, it made of steel. Just clean out the sealer & it should be ok. If you do happen to have a leak get it properly repaired, solder. brazing, welding etc.
Putting in tank sealer is like repairing a car radiator with RADWELD. Or a puncture with FINILEC tyre sealer. Just a temporary repair.

[156trials]

You are quite right on the worth of sealing products John! Using proper industrial materials, and preparation methods, its feasible to repair almost any tank. However in most cases the cost of this is likely to be greater than a new tank, so obviously its not commercially viable.

Bearing in mind the fact not one of the so called tank "sealers" has been properly tested using industry standard test methods, its pretty safe to assume that those selling them are not prepared to test them properly for a very good reason..............most simply dont work for more than a short time!

[Phil Hyde]

Unleaded Petrol

A small point to be aware of. The ethanol element of unleaded petrol, currently known as E5 (5% ethanol) in the petroleum industry. Is not added until it goes into the road tanker transporting the fuel to your local filling station. At the fuel distribution depot ethanol has to be stored in stainless steel tanks due to it's corrosive nature.

As the industry migrates to E7 and beyond. Long term storage in a steel tank or can, may be problematical. Apart from garden machinery, I have no knowledge on how long petrol-oil mixes can be stored. Perhaps a 2-stroke expert could comment.

Spare a thought for some filling stations with GRP underground storage tanks!!

Also, some super un-leaded brands contain low ethanol content, despite their 97 RON rating! There are distinct geographical variations driven by supply and demand.

[John Wakefield]

Phil
I have no problem with the steel tank on my 25DC, sometimes (in winter) fuel remains in tank some weeks, I usually keep it topped up though. With the petroil mix there does not seem any problems with rust.
I think a lot of this ethanol thing is scaremongering by the additives & sealer manufactureres. Remember the useless gadgets on the market when unleaded petrol came in. Fuel Cat for one, a few lead/tin pellets either dropped in the tank or in fuel line, total waste of money. The only problem I see with ethanol is the fibre glass tanks & maybe some petrol pipes & tap seals.
John W

[156trials]

Yes there is certainly a lot of scaremongering.................more worrying though is the fact that very few of the so called sealing products actually work!

[John Wakefield]

If you aint got a fibreglass tank then, no sealer required so no problems.
Why owners waste money on these so called sealers in perfectly sound metal tanks beats me. As I said in a previous post, if a metal tank leaks, fix it by a sound engineering method (solder, braze or weld), or replace or with one that dont leak. If it 'aint broke dont fix it'
As for performance, my bike is actually running better than ever on the current E5 standard unleaded.

[156trials]

One of those selling tank sealer has been suggesting its being used in brand new steel tanks, to overcome problems caused by rust related to Efuels! Nonsense like this seems to get taken seriously by an awful lot of people, and now the same seller is also suggesting his product (previously not suitable for GRP!) is now OK to use!

[Andy Z]

One of those selling tank sealer has been suggesting its being used in brand new steel tanks, to overcome problems caused by rust related to Efuels! Nonsense like this seems to get taken seriously by an awful lot of people, and now the same seller is also suggesting his product (previously not suitable for GRP!) is now OK to use!

I apologise for this rant in advance!

They're all jumping on the bandwagon with these sealers! There are a couple of points regarding this scaremongering which, being a chemist, I find really irritating.

1) Most cars have ordinary steel fuel tanks, so how come these aren't rotting to pieces?!

2) Ethanol does not "attack" steel or aluminium and is not corrosive. It is hygroscopic, but so what, most petrol had traces of water in it way before ethanol showed-up.
Beer which can contain 5% or more ethanol doesn't dissolve aluminium barrels!!!!

3) Many petrol stations have GRP storage tanks which DO NOT dissolve in neat ethanol or even methanol. These are made of similar resins to the ones used in modern GRP petrol tanks, for example, the ones which Roger Ennis uses in his replica tanks. I have 2 of these tanks and they show no signs of dissolving - one is at least 3 years old.

So the only real problems for most classic bike owners are old tank sealers in rusty tanks. As John Wakefield said previously, its not really that hard to fix a steel tank properly!
OK, some o-rings, seals and fuel pipes etc. which are probably past it anyway will fall apart too!

Old GRP tanks, for which new replacements are not readily available will be the worst victims, as the polyester resins used in these tanks will slowly dissolve in petrol containing ethanol.

I'm now going to have a glass of fermented apple juice containing 7.4% ethanol, I hope it doesn't corrode my insides!

Cheers,
Andrew
#190

[dave higgins]

Hi andy, nothing to do the link really, but most cars these days have plastic molded type tanks.
I don`t know the exact material is, buts its all to do with being more crush resistant in an rta, stops leaking fuel getting on to hot exhausts etc.
Was shocked to hear about the amount of ethanol in beer though, i was concerned before about the amount of blood in my alcohol stream, but now a corrosive chemical as well!!!..... dave.

[Andy Z]

Hi andy, nothing to do the link really, but most cars these days have plastic molded type tanks.
I don`t know the exact material is, buts its all to do with being more crush resistant in an rta, stops leaking fuel getting on to hot exhausts etc.
Was shocked to hear about the amount of ethanol in beer though, i was concerned before about the amount of blood in my alcohol stream, but now a corrosive chemical as well!!!..... dave.

Hi Dave,

You're quite right, most car tanks are now made of high-density polyethylene. Cost is also and issue, polyethylene being much cheaper than steel, probably sourced from recycled shopping bags. I'm now drinking beer with a low ethanol content, only 4.1%!!!

Cheers,
Andrew

[dave higgins]

Hi andy, well tonight, ( just as a one off mind you ) i`ve gone for a beverage with a higher ethanol content, so after reading all the posts on this thread, i`m expecting my legs to turn into gooey mess round about now!!!!.
But i do agree with your points on roger ennis tanks, my griffon tank has sustained no deterioration at all & thats been used at least two years & to be honest, before i heard about all this, i used to leave it fueled up most of that time.
prehaps i was just lucky. dave.