Glass fibre petrol tanks and problems with Ethanol in pump fuel.

[John Wakefield]

Effect on bearings oil seals etc

I can report no problems with my 4T engined 24DC as regards ethanol in petrol, in fact it seems to go as well as ever. Had float chamber off carb last week & apart from the usual amount of sediment no problems , all nice & clean. I do try to give it a run once a week weather permitting.

[Honour45]

Glass fibre tanks - possible useful products

Hi everyone - thought I'd take this opportunity to introduce myself as a new member of the forum.

I hope I'm not repeating anybody else's comments here, but there was a useful article on the ethanol/glass fibre tank issue in the November edition of Classic Motorcycle Mechanics. It's worth obtaining a copy if you haven't seen it.

The article concludes that the issue is not going to go awayand makes the point that we need to remain vigilant, but it does list some tank liner products currently on the market that are reputed to remain unaffected by ethanol, namely:

Petseal Ultra
Sureseal
Phenol Epoxy Novolac Epoxy Gas Tank sealer from Caswell Europe.

I can't comment on any of them myself, not having tried them yet, but I'd be interested to hear of anybody else's experiences.

Best regards
Honour45

[Brian Thompson]

Ethanol etc.

Hi Honour45, and a warm welcome to the forum!

Thanks very much for the post. The products you mentioned have been mentioned in this thread, as you suspected (see post #53 on the page 6 of this thread, and below, for more info on them) but it's always good to hear more (especially substantiated recommendations) and add to the information on here.

According to recent 'first hand' experiments by GRA members, as covered in a recent article in our club newsletter 'Leading Link', the product which seems to be giving the most favourable results so far is 'Phenol Novolac Epoxy Gas Tank Sealer', one of the products already mentioned.

For more details of this product click on this link; http://www.caswelleurope.co.uk/gastank.htm

If anyone can add any further feedback on their personal experiences from using this, or any other product claiming to be 'ethanol proof' (positive or negative-it's all useful!), it would be great to hear from you. The more information we can share on this problem, especially with regard to potential solutions, the better.

Thanks everyone.

Brian.

[Honour45]

Thanks

Hello Brian

Thanks for the greeting.

I see, now I've looked back in more detail, that the products I referred to have already been mentioned, particularly by yourself. It's good to see that some of them look as though they might work too!

John Wakefield's comments about regular usage (thereby, keeping a regular flow of fresh fuel through the system) are also useful.

Have to say this is an excellent forum - the difficulty is in dragging myself away from the PC! :-)

Best regards
Patrick (Honour45)

[Brian Thompson]

It's a pleasure!

Hi Patrick,

Thank you for you kind and appreciative words about the forum-it's very much appreciated!

Yes, we are fortunate to have a great number of very experienced and knowledgable members to share information with in the GRA.

I too am hopeful that some answers with the ethanol problem may be starting to emerge. This is a good example of the power of the internet in accumulating and sharing information on issues like this, worldwide too. Ok, it can be a double edged sword in that you can sometime get conflicting accounts and a degree of 'filtering' is often a good idea (!), but the more info the better really, especially any 'first hand experience' of products that have been found to be effective.

Enjoy the forum Patrick, and good to have you with us.

Brian.

[MALCOLM POWLEY]

ethanol

Sorry if im behind the times with this one ,the ethanol problem is there anything yet produced that can cure this problem and get warranty from its makers to confirm this Cheers Malcolm

[John Wakefield]

More on Biofuel (Ethanol)

Attached is an article from The Vintage Club mag The Journal Feb 2011.
Makes grim reading, particularly if the Ethanol content in petrol is increased to 10%

[John Wakefield]

Ethanol performance

Whilst there has been much said about the negative side of ethanol in petrol I wonder if it has a plus side, that of giving petter performance.
I must say that on recent rides on my 4T engined East Coaster it appears to have more power with smoother, quiter running. Did a 60 mile run yesterday & it was really going well, tickover seems more reliable as well. The engine is well run in, in fact I think the bottom end (which I have not touched since I bought the bike some 10 years ago) is the original with over 50k on the clock. I have personally done over 20k on it since I fitted new pistons shortly after buying the bike. So maybe the ethanol content is doing something to enhance performance. I use standard unleaded by the way

[greeves246]

ur getting more loke that muro fella evry day rob hes set fire to his grass lol
i have got my guiger counter for kiddlington lol
glow in the dark greeves

Arghhh! The little primer button on my Husquavana strimmer has disolved! A replacement for this thumbnail sized thing was £8.50 just for it to disolve again soon! I'm going to cut out the middle man and just pour the ethanol-laden petrol straight on to the weeds! However, I suppose if it is THAT environmentally friendly, it will just help the weeds flourish!

[guzzi guy]

Ethanol in Petrol.

Just been reading a letter in the VMCC Mag,it states.
After spending 30 minutes with the technical staff at Total Fuels I have been assured that at this particular moment ( late January) all their fuels,excluding diesel,have ZERO ethanol in them.This situation will exist until June/July of this year,after which,due to Governmental pressure,ethanol will be added to all but one grade,this being TOTAL SUPER,I have been informed that this will always be ethanol free.If we are to retain this state of affairs,I think that Total Fuels deserve our custom and at the same time,we need to keep badgering the buffoons in our Government who are responsible for the pollution of our fuel.
So the answer seems quite simple,USE TOTAL SUPER IN ALL YOUR CLASSIC VEHICLES.
Brian.

[Andy Z]

Just been reading a letter in the VMCC Mag,it states.
After spending 30 minutes with the technical staff at Total Fuels I have been assured that at this particular moment ( late January) all their fuels,excluding diesel,have ZERO ethanol in them.This situation will exist until June/July of this year,after which,due to Governmental pressure,ethanol will be added to all but one grade,this being TOTAL SUPER,I have been informed that this will always be ethanol free.If we are to retain this state of affairs,I think that Total Fuels deserve our custom and at the same time,we need to keep badgering the buffoons in our Government who are responsible for the pollution of our fuel.
So the answer seems quite simple,USE TOTAL SUPER IN ALL YOUR CLASSIC VEHICLES.
Brian.

Hi Brian,

If this is true then I will jump for joy!!

Many thanks,
Andrew

[Andy Z]

Hi Brian,

If this is true then I will jump for joy!!

Many thanks,
Andrew

Having now re-read this letter in the VMCC mag, I'm not sure what he means by "TOTAL SUPER", as Total don't actually sell any petrol called "TOTAL SUPER"!!

I hope its not an April fool!!

[John Wakefield]

Total Super

I think he means 97 ron TOTAL EXCELLIUM. Its their Super Unleaded brand.

[greeves246]

greeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevs

http://www.frost.co.uk/item_Detail.asp?productID=9727

could try this

Following on from John's original post, I've been doing some digging on the internet and have discovered that this is a huge issue, with lots of info and 'chatter' on forums and websites everywhere! The issue is not just confined to bikes as it also affects boat users and, more worringly, light aircraft...(i.e.Cessnas)

In addition, there are some concerns over similar problems caused by fuel additives like stabilisers and octane boosters as well....

What I did was type 'effects of ethanol in fibreglass petrol tanks' and then 'effects of ethanol in fibreglass motorcycle petrol tanks', and as mentioned a heck of a lot of info comes up!

To save everyone time, the best 'summaries' I managed to find of the current situation (from our point of view) can be found by typing the following into your search bar for further info;

1.) www.fbhvc.co.uk (to which the GRA is affiliated, of course.)

Once on the site homepage, search for FBHVC Newsletter#5 'Forthcoming Changes in Fuels'.

The FBHVC info has been covered in 'Leading Link' of course (thanks to Mike Eady), but it's worth having a look anyway for updates etc.

2.) trials central fibreglass fuel tanks and ethanol

This will take you to the relevant page on their (excellent) forum with lots of useful info and links.

One of the problems seems to be that the amount of ethanol present in pump fuels varies. EN10 is the 'standard' fuel, and should contain 5-10% ethanol, which apparently shouldn't give problems (and yet does!) Anything from 11% and upwards will give problems with some materials however! Fibreglass reinforced polyester and fibreglass reinforced epoxy resin are the worst affected, and apparently fibreglass reinforced plastic (which plastic though?!!!) is ok....! This bears out Mike Tizard's helpful post and the new materials Roger Ennis is now using in his products.

Some metal tank sealants are also prone to attack, with some apparently being better than others. The 'best' reported results seem to be with caswell products (click on this link and have a look at http://www.caswelleurope.co.uk/gastank.htm) although POR15 seems to be not so good (click on this link http://www.frost.co.uk/ and search for fuel tank sealer.) I suspect this is being further confused by exactly which brand of fuel is being used etc.

Another option (albeit expensive @ £399!) is to fit an alloy tank of course. The type that used to be marketed by Surrey Cycles are now available again and should fit Anglians etc. The contact is (note, this is NOT Surrey Cycles!) n.lewis452@btinternet.com or telephone 01483 275170. Also check out www.holtworks.co.uk who produce two styles for Greeves (wideline and slimline) and are a little cheaper (thanks for the info Paul!) As far as tanks suitable for Essex models it might be worth checking out www.thetankshop.com and having something custom made perhaps, copied as per original. The website shows some of their amazing work and the prices are similar for 'stock' items, and go from about £400 upwards-again not exactly cheap I know! John Williams is the craftsman to ask and prefers to be contacted for enquiries by post or telephone (01387 740259.)

I remember years ago the problems with safety (and ensuing legislation) that came up when plastic fuel tanks started to appear on bikes, with the fears of potential splitting in a prang on the road, coupled with the ensuing blaze of sparks that would be present during the 'earth/sky/earth/sky' phase (quote Kenny Roberts!).....horrible thought though isn't it..... Toast, anyone.....?!!! A mate of mine told me at the time that a switched-on copper actually 'tested' the tank on his bike with a magnet that he produced from his pocket!

On a related point, I'm unsure as to the current legislation as regards the use of plastic and fibreglass tanks on road bikes, but wouldn't be surprised to find that it's yet another 'grey area' as regards classic bikes etc...Current manufacturers are probably ok (modern materials used and 'type approved' no doubt, a la KTM, Ducati etc.) but as far as fibreglass goes I personally don't know....Does anyone else have this info? I know they are sold for use on 'new' Enfields (Continental GT type, etc) but that they too have been having the same problems with seam failures....I guess in the event of a 'pull' a 'rectification notice' might be what you'd get, but it would be worry if it turned out that your insurance was invalid in the event of an RTA, heaven forbid...especially after all that hassle finding and applying a sealant that's ethanol proof!

I'm just glad that the steel tank on my TCS looks pretty sound, with no sealant or rust inside, and hopefully not too many dings under the silver paint-I hope to get it re-chromed (satin) one day! Thing is, it'll probably cost about the same to get it done as a custom alloy tank I reckon....! Oh well etc....!

Anyway chaps, hope this helps 'fuel the debate' a bit....(sorry!)

Anyone else got any tips or experiences to share?

Brian.

[John Wakefield]

Frost additive

I dont think this stuff will protect fibre glass tanks from ethanol, just another expensive additive. You need a tank sealer, I have heard that SLOSH sold by Dragenfly Motorcycles of Bungay does the business.