Pathfinder engine oil enquiry.

[46T Sprocket]

With my RES Silverstone nearing completion I'm now on to another revival project and I am currently refurbishing a Pathfinder I have just bought. The cycle parts are in poor condition but the engine and gearbox thankfully are sound and function well. The chap I bought it from thought it was an enduro model due to it having lights and MX tyres. It is a trials model though I think. 18" rear wheel. Trials tank and seat. Curiously it does have the enduro crankcase protection loops on the frame.





I had one of these in the early 70s..... and am pretty familiar with them. I recollect that the recommended gear box & combined primary drive oil was automatic transmission fluid. I forget how much the engine used though. Does anyone know the quantity needed and is anyone using an alternative?


Thanks,
David.

[John Wakefield]

Its a TWO STROKE you mix the oil (normal 2 stroke oil) in with petrol

[Colin Sparrow]

I think he means combined gearbox and primary drive, John - the primary transmission is a gear train and is pretty much part of the gearbox. The clutch is on the end of the crankshaft.

[46T Sprocket]

Correct Colin.

The gearbox and primary drive runs in the same oil The crankshaft mains are also lubricated with same gearbox/primary drive oil on the Puch motor. I would like to know the quantity required. The reason being, if you overfill it you can potentially broach the crank seals. Hence the various breathers. There doesn't seem to be any info on the net on the quantity required. Or at least I can't find any relating to the Pathfinder or even the Puch MX version of this engine. I thought a Pathfinder owner on the forum might be able to point me in the right direction.

David.

[Bearingman]

Correct Colin.

The gearbox and primary drive runs in the same oil The crankshaft mains are also lubricated with same gearbox/primary drive oil on the Puch motor. I would like to know the quantity required. The reason being, if you overfill it you can potentially broach the crank seals. Hence the various breathers. There doesn't seem to be any info on the net on the quantity required. Or at least I can't find any relating to the Pathfinder or even the Puch MX version of this engine. I thought a Pathfinder owner on the forum might be able to point me in the right direction.

David.

According to my service notes...Clutch, transmission and crankshaft bearings are lubricated by approximately 800cc SAE30 motor oil contained in gearbox. Gearbox lubricant should be maintained at level of plug...this plug is on RH side lower screw on outer case.

Regards,
Ken Sykes
USA

[46T Sprocket]

According to my service notes...Clutch, transmission and crankshaft bearings are lubricated by approximately 800cc SAE30 motor oil contained in gearbox. Gearbox lubricant should be maintained at level of plug...this plug is on RH side lower screw on outer case.

Regards,
Ken Sykes
USA

Many thanks for that information Ken. I found it. It's the cheese headed bolt on the lower right of the casing. It was obvious really.... All the rest of the casing bolts are countersunk.

I remember speaking to Greeves on the telephone in 1973 about my 71 Pathfinder* and they recommended using automatic transmission fluid in the gearbox to help with the clutch drag that this motor seems prone to. The drag problem is surprising really as the clutch is tiny. It looks like a toy. It's only around 3 1/2" (90cms) in diameter.

Regards,
David.

*this bike was stolen from my shed in Edinburgh in1974. Frame No 59B 344. I often wonder where it ended up.

[Bearingman]

Many thanks for that information Ken. I found it. It's the cheese headed bolt on the lower right of the casing. It was obvious really.... All the rest of the casing bolts are countersunk.

I remember speaking to Greeves on the telephone in 1973 about my 71 Pathfinder* and they recommended using automatic transmission fluid in the gearbox to help with the clutch drag that this motor seems prone to. The drag problem is surprising really as the clutch is tiny. It looks like a toy. It's only around 3 1/2" (90cms) in diameter.

Regards,
David.

*this bike was stolen from my shed in Edinburgh in1974. Frame No 59B 344. I often wonder where it ended up.

Hi David,

I have a 59B...I had to check the number to see if it was not HOT!

Not sure about the ATF...seems too light for the gears to me. I do know the 6-speeds were known to have problems as Puch went back to a 5-speed on their own machines.

Maybe Chris can help us on lube recommendations.

Your Pathfinder looks complete and very nice. I believe both later Trials and Enduros had the crash bars and the high front guard with the flame cut yokes and Metal Profile forks...the 59B had the baby Ceriani fork with a low guard and a nice dent from the yokes hitting

Regards,
Ken

[Phil Hyde]

Atf

Appearances can be deceptive. Automatic transmission fluid is more than suitable for a Pathfinder gearbox/transmission. Or indeed any other Greeves/Villiers gearbox. The only difficulty you may encounter is keeping it in!!

Regards

Phil

[46T Sprocket]

Hi David,

I have a 59B...I had to check the number to see if it was not HOT!


Regards,
Ken

My 59B 344 had a chequered history. It was stolen twice ... The 1st time I had the engine out to replace the draw key - and as I lived in a flat at the time had to leave the motor less frame in the road. I woke up one morning to find the bin men had removed it!
It turned out after involving the police that one of the refuse workers had taken it and had sold it on for £1.50! When I eventually got it back all the engine mounts had been sawn off. It was quite a job to get parts made and brazed in the correct places to get the motor back in.


Regards,
David.

[Bearingman]

Appearances can be deceptive. Automatic transmission fluid is more than suitable for a Pathfinder gearbox/transmission. Or indeed any other Greeves/Villiers gearbox. The only difficulty you may encounter is keeping it in!!

Regards

Phil

Maybe I'll try it in my Pathfinder Phil...the clutch drags as well.

Thanks
Ken

[stormer254]

I use ATF in my Pathfinder and in my lad's`M125 roadbike

[Charlie]

I have just refilled my pathfinder gearbox oil with atf, as mentioned previously, but would suggest going steady with the quantity. I put 600cc in first and then topped up and think I got about another 100cc in before it started coming out of the level plug - bike on level ground.
I have written before about starting troubles with it, which I never resolved, and now think it could be the oil type or quantity or perhaps how it stands in the garage. I had a similar problem with a Triumph I have which was quickly diagnosed by a man in the know (been building Triumphs for many years) as slipping clutch due to excess oil in the chaincase, despite only filling that with the recommended type & quantity of oil. Result was clutch slipping and would not start. We removed & cleaned the clutch plates, put it back together with thinner and less oil and off it went.
It got me thinking about the Pathfinder with similar symptoms. When I took the case off it sure enough the clutch plates were soaked in oil so I suspect the same.
Please could somebody let me know what I need to do to remove the clutch plates from it though?
Thanks,
Charlie.

[46T Sprocket]

Hi Charlie,

I would doubt a slipping clutch is your issue with this motor. The clutch is very good and not subject to slipping unless you have it adjusted incorrectly. To set it correctly take off the big nut on the right casing. You need two screwdrivers to do the job. Firstly slacken off the cable at the handlebar lever. Once you have the big nut off off you will see a circular slotted device with a key across the lot holding all in sync. Take off the key (it's just a push fit) Hold the centre screw to stop it turning with one driver and screw in the outer part till it meets resistance. Back it off a half turn and then re-fit the key. Re-fit the cover nut and tighten the cable leaving a three mm approx play at the lever.

Do you have a spark? That's the first thing to check. If so it is possible that the crankcase is full of oil from your efforts to start it. If there is too much it will just drown the spark. To get rid of the surplus there is a crankcase drain plug under the crank case. Remove that and on an open throttle kick or walk the bike in gear with the plug out for a time to flush out the surplus. Then put it all together and try to start it again. If it is reluctant you may need to bump start it. If your motor has the de-compressor valve this make starting so much easier. Get the piston on compression and just hold the lever in briefly as you start your kick to build up flywheel momentum. Release it half way through the swing.
If you are bumping it just hold the lever in till the motor is turning over at a good rate and as your bum hits the seat release the lever. Or better still get somebody to push you! Be careful and ready with the clutch lever if doing a bump start that the engine doesn't rev too high. In 1st 2nd and 3rd it will do an instant wheelie if the revs are too high......

Good luck.

Regards,
David.

[riflegreen]

Standard oil for Puch engine is ATF.

Chris

[Bearingman]

Standard oil for Puch engine is ATF.

Chris

Hi Chris

There we go! Looks like I'll be changing my oil in my Pathfinder!

Thanks to all.

Kenny Sykes