Greeves in Coventry Transport Museum

[John Wakefield]

There are a couple of Greeves in the Coventry Transport Museum.
One is a standard 25DC (339 MWL frame No 25DC139) The other is a TriGreeves (811 BHP) but is registered as a Caldicott. Anyone know anything about this I note its also registered as 'scooter combination' so may have had a sidecar on it.

[druid]

I think the Caldicott was built by a Mr Caldicott (Richard I think) from Southampton and it was road tested in either the Motorcycle or Motorcycling.

It was only the second Triumph/Greeves I had seen. Scrambler Bill Inglis built the first I think - this appears in John Griffiths "built for speed".

Druid

[John Wakefield]

Thanks for info John & Phil. I wonder why (and how) he managed to register it in his own name as it clearly still has the Greeves frame. Its currently taxed till 9/11 so may be on short term loan to museum. I wonder if he owns the 25DC as well although I cant find this number on DVLA so may have been off the road for some years. Both are in nice condition as are all exhibits in the museum. You really need 2 hours to see it all properly. Its free entry too.

[Brian Thompson]

'Caldicott' Triumph Greeves Special.

I have that very issue of 'Motor Cycle' Phil (30th April 1964), and I thought I'd post this for the benefit of other members who may not have seen it before. According to the article, at the time of writing Richard Caldicott (from Coventry) had been clerk of the course for the Colmore Trial for the previous six years and he built the machine to utilise for that purpose, amongst other duties. Interestingly, it actually started life as a 250cc Villiers engined bike built by Greeves for the 1962 ISDT....(!)

Work began on the conversion in 1963 with the purchase (for £25!) of a 490cc unit construction Speed Twin engine and gearbox unit. Remarkably, the only power tool used in the bikes construction was a hand drill (!), with the rest all being done by hand. Completed in September that year, the finished machine weighed in at just over 300lb, and fuel consumption was 90 miles to the gallon. In addition to clerk of the course duties for the Colmore, the bike was also used for road work, trials prospecting and the ACU Training Scheme, and pretty much anything required, such was it's versatility.

The most tricky parts of the build included getting the chain run lined up correctly, including narrowing down the lugs on the Triumph unit to suit the width of those on the Greeves frame. A 'chunk' had to be cut from the rear of the Triumph oil tank to suit it's position on the frame, and then further work done to restore it's original capacity. The exhaust pipes were mocked-up for fabrication using a novel approach. The layout was worked out using 1" bore polythene tubing, persuaded into shape then held in place with copper wire and strips of wood. The mocked-up pipes were then taken to the local 'snake charmer' (!), who apparently nearly fainted when he saw them, but nontheless managed to turn out 'a beautiful job' for £5 10s.(!)

The silencer was a 'special' too. Richard Caldicott read of the research being carried out at the time by P.O.A.L. Davies of Southampton University and obtained a copy of his paper. Whilst admitting that much of the information was a bit 'over his head', RC nontheless managed to glean enough of the theory to produce a sketch for a proposed design which he sent to Mr. Davis. This was returned, along with some suggested modifications and RC had the silencer made up accordingly. Very light in weight, the finished job contained three internal pipes of calculated lengths seperated by expansion chambers. The exhaust note was such that the bike was described as a 'whispering wonder'! Hand made ring nuts were welded to cut-down Triumph exhaust stubs, and the pipe ends flanged.

Electrics on the bike were an amalgamation of Lucas alternator, Miller headlamp and wipac coil, plus a two-pole, four gang switch (exWD) which performed double duty as both lighting and ignition switch. A Lucas ammeter was also fitted into one side of the Miller headlamp. The rectifier sits on top of the lamp shell, due to there being insufficient room for it in the 'engine bay', and in order to keep the wiring short!

In order to get the gearing right, the rear sprocket was so small in diameter that the chain fouled the wheel hub flange. To rectify this, RC mounted the wheel (on it's spindle) in the vice, and over the course of several evenings applied a cutting tool to the flange whilst turning the wheel by hand until it had been reduced by the appropriate amount...!!!

To address JW's query about the bike being called a 'Caldicott'....apparently, there was a bit of a battle with the taxation authorities. As it was a Greeves according to the logbook, they wanted it to remain as such. However, Richard Calicott reasoned that 'even Sir William Lyons of Jaguar and Colin Chapman of Lotus had to start somewhere', and their first efforts were 'specials' after all....! After endless argument, eventually he got his way and the machine was "officially" recognised as a 'Caldicott'. According to the article this also makes it the last motorcycle to be made within the city limits of Coventry, so it's a most appropriate place to display the machine today.

As Phil mentioned, Bob Currie was full of praise after his test ride, both on and off road, and on a variety of terrain, citing the low-compression ratio and favourable power-to-weight ratio producing an extremely flexible machine and a very comfortable ride.

What a fantastic bike it is, and good to see it's still around. Well spotted John and thanks for the great pics. The first of the pics attached here shows Bob Currie putting the bike through it's paces on a road section and some additional static shots. The last one however, is from another source, and I think may show the original builder, Richard Caldicott himself, enjoying a crafty Woodbine whilst stood beside the bike! Great pic that one!!!

Brian.

[John Wakefield]

The Caldicott

Thanks very much Brian for this comprehensive & interesting story on the Caldicott, I must admit it was a very hurried visit to the CMofT as I only had about 1/2 hour to look round, far too short. I was very surprised to find not one but two Greeves in the museum. As I said before well worth a visit. I wonder if Richard Caldicott is still with us?
Does anyone know anything about 339 MWL the 25DC139

[Brian Thompson]

Caldicott Triumph Greeves.

My pleasure John, and I thought all our Triumph Greeves fans on here (I am very firmly a member of that group!) would enjoy it too. I also hoped it might be of help and interest to David Muir as he's currently putting one together of course. (Have you mounted your back wheel in the vice yet David, in readiness for the 'skimming' procedure....?!!)

Yes, it's a magnificent example of that fine breed, and well worth recounting here, as well as a fair bit of 'fiddling' on the laptop with some old photographs!

It might also be interesting to follow up on that original ISDT connection with this bike, if anyone has a frame number...?

One down and one to go then....So, does anyone have any further information on the 25DC (339 MWL)...? We would be very interested to hear about it if so! Many thanks, in anticipation.

Brian.

[Peter Rotherham]

Coventry Transport Museum.

Hi, Yes I too visited this Museum for the first time last year. It's an amazing place, and all FREE!

All exhibits therein are either on Loan or donations to the Museum, thus a lot of the cars, etc., are in current use, and are driven in the Annual Pageant of Road Transport. I saw the 'Caldicott' and tried, (unsuccessfully), to get a frame No from literature and the Museum. I suspect that it is still being used by it's present owner, as it appeared to be in working order.
It is interesting to compare this museum, with it's heavy Coventry bias to the NMM just up the A.45 at Bickenhill, (next to the NEC and B'ham Airport). There, the bikes are immaculate, but, even today post fire, jammed in together far too tight to be seen properly. Also, I've had one or two anti-motorcycle comments from staff at the NMM who would rather have Business Conferences than oily scruffy motorcyclists walking around! I hope that this last has been addressed. I'm taking my son there soon, I'll let you know....

[John Wakefield]

The Caldicott appears to be taxed on DVLA but I dont think it is still owned by Richard Caldicott as he looked in his 60's in 1964 so would be about 105 now if still alive. The 25DC (339 MWL) is not on DVLA so presumably off the road for years. I have emailed the museum for info on the bikes & who now owns them, so will post reply when I get it. The curator dealing with motorcycles is on leave at present.

[John Wakefield]

More info on the Greeves in Coventry Transport Museum

I have now had a reply from Coventry Transport Museum. They confirm that the Caldicott came to them via the late Richard Caldicott & they have all history of the bike including the press cuttings.
As for the other Greeves, 339 MWL, a 25DC Sports Twin, the reason why this is in the museum is unclear. It was new to a Mr Gardiner of Rugby and they have correspondence from both the Greeves factory & Villiers Engineering to Mr Gardiner, apparently Mr Gardiner was unhappy with the bikes performance. The bike then passed to the late Raymond Allsopp of Leamington Spa & was donated to the museum in September 1997 by his widow. As it does not show on the DVLA web site it looks to have been off the road for many years.

[John Wakefield]

Frame number of 811BHP is 24IN115 (registration number may not be original) So was this a works bike, and if do who rode it?

[druid]

Not a works bike but a customer model, it was sold to Jack Heath in Coventry probably for a rider sponsored by him.

Druid

[John Wakefield]

Not a works bike but a customer model, it was sold to Jack Heath in Coventry probably for a rider sponsored by him.

Druid

Thanks John, that's cleared that one up. 811BHP is a Coventry reg of March 1963 so looks like it gained a new number when Richard Caldicote re registered it as CALDICOTT. It would though have originally been a Coventry reg

[John Wakefield]

Looking at the results of the 1962 ISDT on Speed Track Tales the following rode 246cc Greeves
Bryan Sharpe Gold
D Clegg Bronze
C J Butler Retired
G L Coppock Retired
R G Gocher Retired

We can rule out Brian Sharp so the rider if 24IN115 could have been one of the other 4.

[Colin Sparrow]

There were 16 Greeves entered into the 1962 ISDT in W. Germany. Peter Rose was on a 325, the rest were all 250s.

[John Wakefield]

There were 16 Greeves entered into the 1962 ISDT in W. Germany. Peter Rose was on a 325, the rest were all 250s.

Looking again at the results there was also Triss Sharpe (Gold) on a 246cc Greeves and R A Knott (Bronze) on a 173cc Greeves? So with Peter Rose that was a total of 8 so there must have been 8 non starters.
If 24IN115 was ridden in the event then it would have been a rider from the Coventry area, with Richard Caldicott's connection with the Colmore Trial he would probably have known the original owner and then bought the bike after the event. Its possible that the bike was not ridden in 1962 but remained in the dealers showroom until 1963 which looks like date of original registration, Bob Currie tested it in April 1964 and it was 811BHP then. The later registration date 27/9/83 looks to have been the date it was taken onto the DVLA database so presumably it was at this point when Richard Caldicott managed to get it changed to a CALDICOTT but retaining the original number

Vehicle details
Vehicle make:CALDICOTT
Date of first registration:September 1983
Year of manufacture:1963
Cylinder capacity (cc):500 cc
CO₂Emissions:Not available
Fuel type:PETROL
Euro Status:Not available
Export marker:No
Vehicle status:Tax not due
Vehicle colour:BLUE
Vehicle type approval:Not available
Wheelplan:2-WHEEL
Revenue weight:Not available