Greeves AJS Scrambles Bike

[nzpeterb]

Hi from New Zealand,

Was searching the web for information on any Greeves models in New Zealand and came across references and pictures for an AJS engined Greeves used in 1963 in Europe and 1964 in New Zealand.

I'm sure some of you will know of the rider, but while the Triumph engine seems widely used I have not heard of an AJS special before.

The rider was Tim Gibbes who was born in Australia and rode in the ISDT every year from 1955 to 1963 collecting golds in 55, 58, 60, 61, 62, and 63, as well as a bronze in 1957. He also competed in the Scottish in 1956 and 1957, as well as riding in World Scrambles (MX) events.

Tim moved to NZ in 1961 and, like a number of local riders, spent the summer here and our winter in Britain or Europe competing. After he finished travelling to Europe he ran a motorcycle shop in NZ from 1965 to 1984 and was involved in organising and promoting MX.

It seems many of his rides were AJS mounted so perhaps it was logical for him to use an AJS engine in a Greeves frame. Is this the only AJS example?

I have found two photos. The first is the October 1963 cover of Motor Cycle with a photo of Tim riding in a world event in France.

The second was taken in 1964 in Blenheim in the South Island of New Zealand It was taken in an International Series held in NZ and the caption says "Arthur Harris (Harris Triumph) leads Tim Gibbes (AMC Greeves)

Thought this might be of interest. Does anyone know more of the bikes history or fate, or examples of other specials used for competition in the 60's.

By the way, if I have put this in the wrong forum section please move it to where it should be. Enjoy the photos.

Regards,

Peter Barnett

[Phil Hyde]

Greeves powered by other 4 stroke engines

Hi Peter

Good thread you have started here.

Aside from the more common Triumph engines I have seen Norton single, JAP single, and Matchless single (badge engineered AJS). More modern times have seen BSA singles and Japanese stuff.

A lot of engineering goes into a frame, especially the early models, to accommodate a big single.

Hope all is well in NZ now the better weather has arrived.

Phil

ps. Tim runs Tim Gibbes Track Timing throughout New Zealand. Mostly car and bike events ........street circuits as well as tracks.

[Brian Catt]

We must not forget the NSU, the Velocette, BSA twins, Zundapp etc....I don't think anyone has put a Hecules Wankel in a Greeves, but......just about everything else of a suitable size must have been tried!

[Kim275]

Good point Brian .... Testament to the quality sturdiness and handling of a greeves frame.... Mind you how to improve an AJS Greeves ... Get yourself s Greeves Greeves

[Brian Catt]

Forgot the Ariel Arrow jobbie! Yes Kim, it does say something for the studiness of the frame.....or the fact that plenty of Villiers engines were tested to distruction!

[Andy Z]

We must not forget the NSU, the Velocette, BSA twins, Zundapp etc....I don't think anyone has put a Hecules Wankel in a Greeves, but......just about everything else of a suitable size must have been tried!

One of the oddest ones I've come across was the Greeves/Motobi. Why????

[Brian Thompson]

I'd still call it Kevin, even if it was a girl bat.....

One of the oddest ones I've come across was the Greeves/Motobi. Why????

Hi mate,

....probably for the same reason I want one of these.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu_Q26XxPhc

Brian.

[Andy Z]

Hi mate,

....probably for the same reason I want one of these.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu_Q26XxPhc

Brian.

Definitely not the same! The bat is very cute and will be useful as a living creature. That bike's fins will be clogged in mud very quickly, making it pretty useless! That's if the rocks don't smash the fins off first!

I could tell you a funny story about some fruit bats in a wildlife park in the Isle of Man, but it might result in prosecution! It wasn't my fault, my son let them out!!

Cheers,
Andrew

[nzpeterb]

Hybrids on the World Competition Stage?

Thanks for the replies received.

I've done a bit more research on Tim Gibbes and looks like he rode the ISDT on AJS, Matchless, Jawa and Ariel machines, the Ariel ride being his when Sammy Miller was too sick to compete.

The MotoBi is an interesting option. I assume the alloy beam was shortened to fit the engine in.

I am, aware of a number of hybrids with some mentioned to date but at world competition level (ISDT, Scrambles, Trials, or Road Race) were any hybrids used other than the AJS/Greeves I started the thread with?

Regards

Peter

[Brian Catt]

Well, you must firstly consider the NSU Greeves that Bryan Stonebridge used (as well as the Villiers engined bike) to win tha European Scrambles Championship. I ma not aware of a hybrid being used in the ISDT, unless anyone has better info.

[nzpeterb]

NSU Special

So anyone got a photo of the NSU Greeves they can share along with a paragraph on when, where, and what used for?
Regards,

Peter.

[Colin Sparrow]

Following an injury in Holland (dislocated shoulder - ouch!) Brian only managed second place in the 1959 Coupe D'Europe.

He rode the NSU Greeves in four rounds, the results being two wins, two retirements. Page 75 of the book...

He built his first NSU Greeves in 1958 - without Bert's knowledge. Barry Keymer has that bike. The 1959 bike survives, restored, in a private collection.

Interesting thread. What about the various Pathfinder hybrids which have been built?

[nzpeterb]

Thanks for the contribution Colin.

Page 75 gives the relevant information and a couple of good pictures.

So any other hybrids that competed at a high level?

regards,

Peter.

[Colin Sparrow]

OK, but for anyone else who's interested, here's a straight lift from the book.

(well, I can, it's my copyright...)

The NSU Experiment
The inauguration of the new 250cc European Moto-Cross Championship, the Coupe D’ Europe, offered the opportunity for Greeves to compete on an international level, but they still only had a 197cc engine. Casting around for a suitable engine after his 2T experiments had proved ineffective, Brian Stonebridge hit upon the 250cc four-stroke that NSU used for their Max road bike. He knew, though, that Bert Greeves would be unlikely to agree to a four-stroke engine being used, as his machines were all two-strokes, and that he might object on principle to using a German engine.


The NSU engine was actually quite a good choice. Built in unit with the gearbox and with geared primary drive, it had an overhead camshaft driven by connecting rods via a gear from the crankshaft (the Ultramax drive). It produced a healthy 17bhp at 6,500 rpm and had the meaty torque characteristics you’d expect from a four-stroke single. In great secrecy and entirely without Bert Greeves’ knowledge Stonebridge quietly acquired an NSU Max engine himself and shoehorned it into a Hawkstone. Intended as a test-bed, the only time it appeared at a British meeting was in June 1958 when he practiced on it at the Coupe D’ Europe meeting at Beenham Park. He used a two-stroke in the actual competition. Stonebridge did not encourage interest in the machine, evidenced by the removal of the embossed “NSU” logo, leaving just the central “S”, and the enigmatic words he punched on to the alloy clutch cover “IF YOU CAN READ THIS YOU ARE FAR TO (sic) INQUISITIVE”.

The Coupe D’ Europe NSU/Greeves
After a successful couple of outings to Coupe D’ Europe rounds in 1958, Stonebridge, started on a new machine specifically to contest the 1959 series. Convinced by his earlier experiments that the NSU Max engine was suitable he bought another one and they built it into a bespoke frame.

Construction started, still without Bert Greeves’ knowledge, although clearly his approval would be needed at some point. Things came to a head one Saturday morning when the guv’nor appeared unexpectedly in the comp shop and spied the NSU engine on the bench. A “robust discussion” then ensued, but the eventual outcome was that the project received official, if grudging, approval.

The NSU/Greeves made its competition debut at Brands Hatch on 5th April 1959. Brian Stonebridge took 250cc honours, but a dislodged oil pipe in a later race starved the engine of lubricant, causing damage. The engine was rebuilt by an NSU specialist in Belgium. A Sportmax camshaft was fitted and other performance modifications made. To good effect; after this work the bike was a real flyer.

Through that summer the Greeves team contested as many Coupe D’ Europe rounds as they could, with Stonebridge taking along both the NSU special and a two-stroke scrambler and using whichever suited each individual circuit. The NSU/Greeves was the machine of choice on four occasions, the result being two wins, two retirements.

Both the 1958 and 1959 NSH/Greeves still exist and both have been restored, indeed the earlier machine is still used in pre-65 competition. In 2009 the writer had the privilege of riding the two bikes on a circuit “back to back”, the first person ever to do so. It was very interesting to compare them. Both bikes have remarkably strong engines; both machines handle very well. The 1958 bike was a slightly better ride if anything as it has been developed for competition use over a number of years whereas the later machine has been restored to its 1959 configuration.

The picture shows the bike at Brands Hatch with Stonebridge on board in its first competitive outing.

[Colin Sparrow]

The only ISDT hybrid I'm aware of is 1958 works bike 2LHK to which Albert Glassbrook fitted a 2T engine for the 1959 and 1960 ISDTs. In 1961 and '62 it was entered as a 325, so had a 3T or at least a 3T top end. In '62 it was ridden by Peter Rose.

I don't know if it counts, Peter..?

The bike still survives with Albert Glassbrook's daughter and her husband and gets used by him occasionally. And, er, oh yes, I've ridden it...