Keith Williams and Orpin Greeves

[Stan Nicholson]

Still being raced in "vintage" (classic in the UK) events in Canada, at least it would be now if everything hadn't been shut down by Covid-19 :-(.

Stan

[John Wakefield]

Thanks for heads up on the Peter Williams bike Stan, I will add it onto survivors list for completeness. (will leave Ian T to decide if he wants to put it on the GRA Racer Database) What condition is it in now?

[Stan Nicholson]

Mine is 24RDSSTE1.
That is why it doesn't appear on the database, I guess Peter made up the number when he modified an "old" Silverstone sitting in the back of the Greeves shop as above when he became frustrated that Greeves had not even started producing the RDS and he had race entries accepted already (per his book)!. STE would be for Stevens of Shepherds Bush, Orpin's shop. There is no evidence of a previous number being ground off so I assume the bike he used had an unstamped frame. I think it may have been an unnumbered Orpin bike from 1965 (RCS) as it has the remnants of the brace between the two rear engine mounts that was not fitted on the RDS because of the the CC gearbox, which was also fitted to Peter's bike.so he had to remove this brace.

Unless Colin can identify the number of Keith's bike from the delivery to Comerfords sometime in early 66, then we may never know unless it turns up again.

Stan

[John Wakefield]

Both bikes

[Stan Nicholson]

Whose frame number are you referring to John, mine or the Keith Williams bike?

All I know about Keith's Silverstone, in a note from him via another forum, is that he bought it new in 1966 from Comerfords. This would make it an RDS and as the first RDSs were shipped in May 66 it would be after that date. He subsequently bought the water-cooled conversion, including the LE radiator and new expansion chamber, from Reg Orpin in late 66, at a cost of 167 GBP 10 shillings :-).

The remains of the bike now reside in NZ.

Stan

[John Wakefield]

Does anyone know the frame number if the bike? I cant see it on the 'Racer Database' https://www.greeves-riders.org.uk/racers-database/

[nzpeterb]

Thanks for the replies. Looks like I need to find a copy of Derek Pickard's Book. I will add any extra information if I find it.

Regards,

Peter

[Dogsbody]

Stan, thanks for that info. Don't think I have ever seen that article, I will try to source it. Thanks again.

[Stan Nicholson]

Colin, mine is the beam frame bike shown on page 47 of Derek Pickard's book. I have a copy of the complete article from the 21 April, 1966 Motor Cycle, obtained from Mortons, that Derek used a part of. The second page has a "bird's-eye view" photo of the bike with tank and seat removed, showing the mods Peter made to the rear frame. The photo that Derek used shows the mods to the footrest hanger with the Silverstone loop removed and replaced with aluminium mounts. When I bought the bike in 1981 from Atlantic Motorcycles it had an Oldani front brake in place of the Velo item shown in the 1966 write-up, possibly part of the rebuild after Peter's Snetterton crash. The front brake is shown in the photo of John Cooper on an Orpin Greeves on page 25 of Derek's book.

Peter goes into some detail in his book about making the mods to a standard Silverstone to suit the water-cooled cylinder in early 1966, before the factory got around to making the first RDS that year. Interesting that Peter is not credited with making the "extensive" frame mods in David Dixon's write-up.

NZPeter, Mervyn Statford built a water-cooled replica Silverstone that he raced with the CRMC and, I believe, in the Island. I will send you a PM when I dig out the information from back in early 2017 about the Keith Williams bike, as there is some controversy about this.

Stan

[Dogsbody]

The photo in Derek Pickard's British 250 Racer shows scoops on the fairing side and says work on the frame dropped overall height by 2 in. Also used two coils to two 10mm plugs and says boosted the compression ratio way above the usual 9:1.

[nzpeterb]

Thanks Kevin,
Had a look at the Carrick Walker book and it gives some more detail as well as showing another watercooled bike on page 108. The Roger Cramp RBS with water cooled rotary valve engine.
Regards,
Peter.

[KevinLS]

On page 104 of the Carrick book there is a photo of the Orpin water cooled jacket. I believe it used thermal syphon and an LE Velocette radiator. On page 106 there's a photo of Williams on the Jim Lee framed bike cw twin discs. I'm not sure whether it was water cooled.

[Colin Sparrow]

Stan, is yours the steel-framed Orpin racer? Apart from giving Peter the riding position and handling he wanted it allowed more air to reach the radiator.

[nzpeterb]

Stan,
Thanks for the brilliant reply. This leads to a few more questions.
1. Does Keith Williams bike survive? Probably hard to find out unless we have a frame number.
2. Does anyone still have a complete water cooled bike?
3. Does anyone have technical data on the water cooled conversion?
If I can get answers to these questions and some photos I might be to provide an article for Leading Link.
Thanks again Stan,
Regards,
Peter

[Stan Nicholson]

Kiwi Keith Williams raced in the UK in 66/67 on a Silverstone and bought a Reg Orpin water cooled conversion kit in late 66. These were shown at the Earls Court motorcycle show that year following Peter William's racing the original water cooled bike throughout the 66 season. The story I put together from correspondence with various people in Australia and NZ and with the late Chris Goodfellow was that after Peter crashed the Orpin bike at Snetterton in late 66 it was rebuilt with an air cooled cylinder and the radiator, etc was removed and returned to Reg. When Keith sent his cylinder to Reg Orpin ( I gather it was an exchange system) Reg told him it was unsuitable for conversion so supplied him with the cylinder from Peter's bike as part of his conversion kit. I gather Keith took the bike back to NZ with him when he returned and raced it there for a while before buying a Yamaha.
Why it was of interest to me is that I still race the "Orpin" Silverstone that Peter Williams modified in early 66, while working at Greeves, to accept the Orpin water cooled engine but also to lower the frontal area and alter the riding position as he didn't like the standard Silverstone relationship between the seat, footrests and handlebars.
Stan