1965 ISDT MX2 Challenger project

[Brian Catt]

Paul, just about every manufacturer who took participation in the ISDT seriously would have provided their bikes with a means of splitting the rear wheel so that the chain and rear brake did not have to be disturbed when changing a puncture. Most used a spline system, so that it was the work of just a few moments to undo the spindle, pull it out and move any spacers, then pull the major part of the wheel away from the splines so the rider could work on the tyre leaving everything else intact.
Photos show Roy Peplow with his Triumph during a practice session with chain and brake intact and Arthur Browning during the Italian ISDT in 1968, with chain off sprocket and brake rod out.
The major players in that period would have had a system where their top riders would have had such coverage on the route that a Trophy Team rider would have a similar bike in near proximity (either competing or ridden by a mechanic), so that in the event of a puncture, a swap would have taken place, costing about 30 seconds. The team's mechanic would have mended the puncture, then swapped back later. Naturally, this was against the rules and can't be proven, but believe me, it took place plenty of times.

[Brian Catt]

British strategy in the ISDT was something of a joke. The only thing we got right in the late 60s to early 70s was to pitch the Cheney Triumphs against the BMWs in the 750 class. The Beemers were quick in a straight line, but not as good in rough country. Hence our good showing in Spain in 1970, where Jimmy Sandiford won the class.
For the record, the pic of Roy was at a Training camp at Bordon, Hants, and Roy was doing a Masterclass demonstration. The pic of Arthur was at a checkpoint. We were not in the running for any prizes there, so the use of the footpump would not have been a problem (Tools not carried on the bike).

[druid]

1965 ISDT Challenger

While I appreciate what Brian is saying I've worked with both BSA QD wheels and the Greeves ISDT item and found the difference was slight. The BSA qd wheel was the best, the Velocette the worst. Greeves used a QD brake rod and anchor arm and a 1/2 turn of the spindle nut could release the wheel (after undoing the chain). The BSA item was fine providing you didn't get any grit on the spindle threads or splines. It was very much heavier though and Bert would have rather stuck pins in his eyes than use BSA parts on a Greeves. I watched all the team riders at the lunch stop at Garmisch in '69 and the difference between the Greeves and BSA/Triumphs was not great.

The difference between say, the East Germans and CZ and the British was that the British team effort was a commercial enterprise up to about 1970. The bikes and riders were paid for by the the British motorcycle manufacturers. While a British win was good it was the performance of their own products and subsequent publicity which made it worthwhile or not. There was no common interest. Not so with EG and CZ. You couldn't buy what they used anyway.
It was only when the manufacturers pulled the plug that riders and selection committees had a free hand in what they rode.

Pleasse feel free to argue the point. The above is my opinion only.

Druid

[pgc40]

Thanks everyone for your replies

I have attached a couple of photos of my ISDT rear wheel spindle and 'quick detachment' configuration. Great photos Brian and I agreed with Druid that the tommy bar levers and half turn of the spindle nut works pretty good. Note the different rear torque arm which slides out with the back wheel without having to undo the bolt to the swing arm.

I have also looked back and found a photo of my gearbox mount which shows it snug to the frame as you describe Chris. When I removed the engine from the frame, I discovered that the studs were chewed up and holes elongated and mounting plate broken I think this is what forced Dale Deyo to retire during the 1965 IoM ISDT. Cheers Paul

[Rob]

Paul - just for info - we have quite a few ISDT engineering drawings in the archives if you get stuck for anything. Judging by the good job you are doing, I guess it might be a bit late for that! Cheers, Rob

[pgc40]

Thanks Rob, there are a couple of items that I am unsure of and they are the speedometer bracket that mounts to the handle bar risers (see photos attached) and the ISDT fiberglass airbox. Any info finding these, detailed photos or drawings showing how to fabricate them would be most helpful. Cheers Paul

[pgc40]

Hi everyone - going back to my engine mount problem - I am guessing that if I fit 1/4" spacers to the top two gearbox studs then perhaps it would prevent my front engine bracket from shearing at the bolt holes again or should I just keep tightening the top gearbox stud nuts and hope for the best

Oddly enough, it is only my top gearbox studs that do not tighten snug. My bottom studs fit perfectly. I am now wondering if the backbone on my frame has sagged?? - any suggestions welcome Many thanks, Paul

[Bearingman]

Thanks Rob, there are a couple of items that I am unsure of and they are the speedometer bracket that mounts to the handle bar risers (see photos attached) and the ISDT fiberglass airbox. Any info finding these, detailed photos or drawings showing how to fabricate them would be most helpful. Cheers Paul

Hi Paul,

Druid has given me the proper photos of the pre-production air box. You won't be disappointed when I'm finished with your air box.

Kenny

[pgc40]

Cheers Kenny - I know that the airbox you are making for us will be sweet I did n't know that pre-production airbox photos were available - I just thought I would ask.

My goal for 2012 is to enter the ISDT reunion ride on the 28th October which is being held in Oklahoma. I believe that its a two day event and looks like lots of fun. Here are some photos from last years ISDT RR at Combs, Arkansas see http://www.siegecraftnw.com/ISDT11-1.htm

Paul

[Bearingman]

Cheers Kenny - I know that the airbox you are making for us will be sweet I did n't know that pre-production airbox photos were available - I just thought I would ask.

My goal for 2012 is to enter the ISDT reunion ride on the 28th October which is being held in Oklahoma. I believe that its a two day event and looks like lots of fun. Here are some photos from last years ISDT RR at Combs, Arkansas see http://www.siegecraftnw.com/ISDT11-1.htm

Paul

Hi Paul.

The production box will not fit due to a different mounting location and the two small tube gussets that make our two frames different. I tried to mount an MX3 box in mine but it just would not work. For our Internationals I think it is wise to stay with same design when they left the factory.

It needs to warm up a little as you well know here in the Pacific Northwest to finish your air box!

Kenny

[riflegreen]

Paul ,

Your best bet is to bolt the rear of the engine up tight & then check the the front plate alignment .

I expect , as you say , that the top frame tube has bent , which should be fairly easy to sort out .

Chris

[pgc40]

Thanks guys - I will keep you posted. I think Kenny that the pre-production airbox will look awesome Cheers Paul

[pgc40]

Here's photos of the ISDT bike at Greeves Days 2012 in Pozo California. Still a work in progress but getting closer I have also posted a video of Bearingman riding it on my blog at http://greevesmotorcycles.blogspot.com/

I discovered that the MX2 kidney shaped Albion gearbox is not working correctly It is very hard to get into first gear (grating sound) and it sometimes jumps out of second. Clutch appears to be working ok and I can get all four gears as shown in the video so I guess its a problem with the gear selector. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to fix it or come up against the same problem? Many thanks, Paul

[Bearingman]

Here's photos of the ISDT bike at Greeves Days 2012 in Pozo California. Still a work in progress but getting closer I have also posted a video of Bearingman riding it on my blog at http://greevesmotorcycles.blogspot.com/

I discovered that the MX2 kidney shaped Albion gearbox is not working correctly It is very hard to get into first gear (grating sound) and it sometimes jumps out of second. Clutch appears to be working ok and I can get all four gears as shown in the video so I guess its a problem with the gear selector. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to fix it or come up against the same problem? Many thanks, Paul

Hello Paul,

Happy you made it back home safe. It was a good Greeves Daze again.

Your International runs well with the Villiers carb, and it feels very comfortable to ride. Happy You have me filmed hitting all 4 gears! Maybe Chris can help us out on the kidney style Albion box of tricks. Again I was somewhat surprised of first gear being a bit high, you may want to check on a smaller transmission sprocket and see if that helps a bit.

Once I get through with other people's projects and the "XP Griffon" project, I hope to get real serious on my own International.

Congratulations on winning best "Challenger Trophy"! Your hard work and dedication to restoring a little piece of Greeves history was well worth it.

Here's to you Paul!

Cheers!
Kenny

[pgc40]

Thanks Kenny - I had an amazing weekend in California and to win a trophy was icing on the cake. I am going to take the gearbox apart this weekend and have a look inside Cheers Paul