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Glass fibre petrol tanks and problems with Ethanol in pump fuel.

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  • IanCordes
    replied
    That is interesting about Esso superunleaded being ethanol-free, assuming that test method is reliable. It may be a regional thing, given that the general consensus is that the only one that can be relied upon for being ethanol free is BP Ultimate, and then, only in some parts of the country.

    I have heard that the method you describe has been used to remove ethanol from petrol, by pouring the petrol off, leaving the water/ethanol mix behind. What the characteristics of the petrol would be is another thing. Also, a bit tedious, and tricky to do on the forecourt.....

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  • Dogsbody
    replied
    Repeated today with Esso Super unleaded. Almost instant separation with no discolouring of the petrol and no increase in the water level. So that petrol station has ethanol free for the time being at least. Will be interested to see if anyone else has similar results. Dogsbody

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  • Dogsbody
    replied
    Have just done a test using a glass measuring cylinder for accuracy with the following result. Adding 100cc of petrol to 100cc of water, giving a shake and allowing to settle, the water level was marginally over 105cc. This was Shell V-Power from a local garage. Conclusively proves to me anyway that it contains ethanol and my decision to only use race fuel is vindicated. Dogsbody

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  • Dogsbody
    replied
    Colin, My first test when I added a few drops of water to about 25cc of Shell petrol and shook it up produced a milky coloured solution that sat at the bottom of the jar. Repeating the test with Esso super unleaded, the water remained clear and in globule form, so I assumed the Shell contained ethanol. Having seen the insides of a lot of Ducati steel tanks that have rusted badly, it is apparent that it is a problem that will affect older cars and bikes more than modern ones. Ducati in particular along with Aprilia and Triumph have suffered badly in America with the 10% Ethanol content affecting the plastic tanks. The Ducati tanks were swelling and becoming detached from the front mountings,

    Dogsbody

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  • Dick F
    replied
    No matter what we do , the fact is the fuel company's will stop producing the good stuff if the market is not great enough

    We are being forced off the road unless you can afford to keep up with new car electronics as well, my car has just cost a fortune to sort out why it did not start, after paying a fortune iti s still breaking down .diagnostic cost have still not got it sorted??

    Where can i get a vehicle that starts stops, takes you from a to b without the all singing dancing rubbish that we are told is good for you.

    Anybody got a Morris 1000 ,!!! but we have no little garages now or the employees . what is going wrong with the world

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  • IanCordes
    replied
    Much research into ethanol in fuel has been carried out by VMCC, FBHVC and others; check their websites for more info...



    Here is an extract of a reply I received from BP, asking them about ethanol in their superunleaded, last year:-

    Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 09:27:23 +0100
    From: careline@bp.com

    Dear Mr Cordes,

    Thank you for your email concerning the fuel sold by BP.

    In most regions of the UK our Ultimate Unleaded dos not contain any Ethanol at present (South West UK excluded). This may of course change in the future as the specification allows up to 5%. If there will be any changes, these will bw shown on the pumps and at the stations.

    Our Regular grade gasoline does contain up to 5% bio ethanol in compliance with EN228 gasoline specification allowance in most regions of the UK.

    BP does not supply Bio Ethanol as a fuel.

    Kind regards,

    Bettina

    Retail Customer Care Team

    Email: careline@bp.com

    This shows it does contain ethanol in the south-west. Ethanol is added to the tankers when they are being loaded for delivery, which is no doubt determined by the policy of the distribution depots, as BP, for example, do not actually produce the stuff.

    Murco s/unleaded used to be ethanol-free in the south-east, below the M4 corridor, but when they shut their Milford Haven refinery late last year, selling it and 3 depots earlier this year, that can't be guaranteed any more.

    It has been established that Esso and Shell, as well as all supermarkets, supply ethanol in all their petrol. There was a question mark over Texaco, but apparently they haven't confirmed or denied, so let the buyer beware.

    Unfortunately, legislation only requires notification on the forecourt pumps if the ethanol content is above 5%.....

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  • Colin Sparrow
    replied
    What exactly was surprising about the results, Colin? Or was the surprise the fact that it actually worked?

    Useful dodge if it does!

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  • Dogsbody
    replied
    Or you can test for free, taken from an aviation website.I have done this with surprising results. Dogsbody
    HOW TO TEST FUEL
    FOR ETHANOL

    To determine if ethanol is in the gas:

    On a test tube or olive bottle six or seven inches long, make a permanent line about two inches from the bottom.
    Fill with water to this line, then fill the tube to the top with gasoline.
    Cover the tube, agitate it, and let it stand.

    The ethanol and water will mix and separate out together. If the water level appears to have increased, the fuel contains ethanol and should not be used. Ethanol percentages of less than 5% can sometimes give a reading below the line. Therefore, any deviation in the water line indicates the presence of ethanol and should serve as a basis for rejecting the fuel.

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  • Stuart Baskill
    replied
    Originally posted by IanCordes View Post
    All supermarket petrol whether 95ron or superunleaded; Tesco's being 99ron; contain ethanol. Just 3 litres of Tesco s/unleaded stripped the paint off the inside of the filler in my Norton petrol tank overnight; that was just the fumes.
    The only superunleaded you can be sure still contains no ethanol is BP, but even then, that does not apply to all regions of the country. ALL pump petrol in the south west; Cornwall, Devon, Somerset etc contains ethanol; period. Also, I believe, in Scotland. In the south-east, Midlands and oop north, you will be ok with BP Ultimate, but that is about it.
    Apparently you can buy an ethanol tester for £19.90 from Frosts (part number Z600) and the man who wrote the article said that all the super fuels that he had tested were free from ethanol.

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  • Dogsbody
    replied
    This article gives more specifics,
    http://www.clubdbsa.org/forums/showt...d-the-hard-way!
    When I was speaking with Sunoco ref jetting it came as a surprise that with R6SR I would need to go down a couple of jet sizes not up as I thought. The reason is that pump petrol has about 1.8% oxygen, R6 has none, although they do some fuel up to 12.9% oxygen and others up to 120 RON!
    It really is a minefield. Dogsbody

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  • IanCordes
    replied
    Cheers Dogsbody, that is an interesting article. It is more or less what I was refering to in an earlier post, but I had only heard it anecdotally.

    To pick the bones out of it; it is interesting that it is described as LL; low lead; whilst the article states it has a high lead content. Also that it warns of the effects of lead on engine internals. I thought lead was meant to be a good thing in 4-strokes, lubricating valves, preventing valve seat recession etc. If harmful, why would they use it in aircraft engines?

    Being formulated for slower-revving long stroke motors should be ok for our 2-strokes, and old 4-strokes, Nortons, Triumphs etc etc, and if mixed 40/60 as the article suggested, and as you conclude, it should be beneficial.

    We still need a reliable supply of ethanol-free superunleaded to mix it with! Good old BP....

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  • johnrunnacles
    replied
    Thanks Dogsbody. Useful info.

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  • Dogsbody
    replied
    Re Avgas, this from another site
    AvGas is short for Aviation Gasoline. AvGas is of interest to motoring enthusiasts because of its availability, octane rating and low price compared to commercial race fuels. AvGas might seem an obvious choice but closer study raises some doubt.

    AvGas LL100 stands for "Low Lead 100 Octane". TEL (Tetra-ethyl-lead) is added to raise the octane. When used in a motor vehicle this fuel will leave a lot of lead deposits in the motor. 100LL has a high lead content (0.5 grams per litre), even higher than leaded race fuels. The deposits left when TEL(lead) is burned are corrosive and damaging to valves, valve guides, valve seats and cylinder heads. Lead deposits will also block oxygen(lambda) sensors and catalytic converters and foul spark plugs even after only a short use. Also, 100LL has a chemical package added to make it perform at high altitude, and that isn't the best thing for motor vehicle performance here on the ground.

    AvGas is blended for large-bore, long-stroke, low RPM engines which run at high altitude. While AvGas' higher octane is useful, smaller-bore, shorter-stroke, high RPM engines will perform better on racing fuel or high quality octane boosters. AvGas has lower volatility so when used in proportions higher than about 40%, part-throttle drivability and cold starts may be compromised. AvGas has a lower specific gravity so it will require a change in air-fuel ratio calibration for the engine to perform at its best. LL100 is blended with a high percentage of aromatics causing reduced throttle response which is not an issue with an aircraft engine but certainly an issue in a high-performance automotive engine. These high levels of aromatics will also damage rubber components in automotive fuel systems such as fuel lines, fuel pump seals and injector washers.

    The sale and use of AvGas is heavily-regulated. Most aircraft fuel dealers refuse to put AvGas into anything other than an aircraft fuel tank. There is a legal grey area that has some vendors willing to dispense AvGas into "approved" containers if they believe the end use of that AvGas is fueling an aircraft engine. This loop-hole is how some may obtain AvGas for automotive use. Because AvGas has no taxes and duties on it, use on public roads is illegal and if found could result in your vehicle being impounded.

    Apart from availability problems as none of the local airports will sell it to non aircraft owners, it burns too slow for high revving, high compression engines ( not really an issue for most two stroke owners ) but mixed 50/50 the lead content is beneficial for older four stroke engines.
    However my reasons for using Sunoco race fuel are it's guarantee of being Ethanol free, stability, and it's consistency.
    Dogsbody

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  • aa will
    replied
    fuel

    i use std avgas in my panther sprint/hillclimb vintage special it runs great i drain it after each meeting then add a bit of oil then it goes in my scottish outfit , if i have no trials i sling it in the old mz they all seem happy , the only problem is that some of the local airfields have started asking for the planes logbook ,(sorry guv its around here somewhere),but its obvious that me getting 20litres must have a very small plane, or!!!!!!! will.

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  • Dick F
    replied
    Yes When i had the Silverstone i did get it from Goodwood, as they need it Rob uses it also in his TZ racers as they run now just on straight avas , running 50 - 50 mixes he used in the past were ok but he had some expensice blow ups and has now changed, i know trials strokers can use the ordinary rated fuel but i like to use the top octane if i can, my modern road bike is happy with the cheaper fuel but they are designed for it >

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