Glass fibre petrol tanks and problems with Ethanol in pump fuel.

[MALCOLM POWLEY]

tank

Hello John havnt seen you for a while, regardingthis tank problem ,will this affect my Anglian tank, only it seems to be made of plastic not fiber glass

[John Wakefield]

Anglian tank

Hi Malc
As far as I know Greeves never used 'plastic' tanks, if its an original Anglian tank it will be fibre glass & it WILL be effected by ethanol. Dave Pink has had to replace the one on his Tri Greeves with a standard steel roadster tank. Yours will be ok if you dont put petrol in it, & just show it.

[Gudgeon]

Tank Sealer

If it's any use, I found this in the Aircraft Spruce & Speciality Co. catalogue: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...tanksealer.php

Most Aircraft Tank sealers are for 'real' petrol (ie AVGAS), This claims suitability for MOGAS too.

A/C Spruce are American but (I believe) have a good mail order service, there is also a UK outlet, last address (2002): Unit 9, Cam Centre, Wilbury Way, Hitcin, Hertfordshire. Tel 01462 441995

[John Wakefield]

Tank sealers

I think the problem with tank sealers is whilst they may work for a short period they eventually break down & you are back with a leak with the added problem of a gooey mess. Also (& more relevent to current Greeves owners) it is pointless trying to seal a glass fibre tank that has had two stroke mix in it. The oil will have penetrated deep into the fibre & no sealer will bond to oil.

[Keith Beach]

ethanol

Dear All,

Ive been reading the postings about ethanol in petrol with interest and concern like many others. I too have contacted all the major petrol retailers in the UK. Esso have been particulary helpful and I post their most recent email to me from a series of exchanges beneath. It seems their Esso Super Unleaded does not currently contain ethanol and that they have no current plans to introduce it into it in the next two years though by implication they will do so thereafter. However this will be limited to 5%. The geographical exception to this is the west country. BP and Texaco have indicated to me that BP Ultimate Unleaded and Texaco Super Unleaded respepctively to not currently contain ethanol. Shell could not give any reassurances that any of their products did not contain ethanol and were also clear that if it did it would not be indicated on their pumps and that their retail staff would be as unclear as the end user.

Email from Esso:

"Thank you for your e-mail. I contacted our Product Quality Manager again
with your reply and was advised the following.

Govt legislation around bio use is pushing the UK market to universally
contain ethanol at a current level of 5%. Probably by mid next year the EN
228 specification will allow up to 10% ethanol. It's his understanding that
at this elevated treat rate that issues with fibre glass have been seen and
less or none so at 5%. Older fibre glass tanks were implicated, although
this is in dispute as he understand a class action is in place in the US.

Once the UK moves to 10% ethanol in Premium Unleaded the Govt has mandated
Super Unleaded as the protection grade and hence it can contain a max of 5%
ethanol.

Certain of our distribution areas are still ethanol free across the country
for PU though it would be difficult to list for consumers hence my
suggestion around SU (except for Cornwall and much of Devon), we certainly
have no plans for further introduction into SU over the next couple of
years.

I hope it helps

Best wishes

Zsolt Móricz
UK and Ireland Customer Care
Esso/Exxon

Incidentally I am a reasonably new member and cant remember if Ive introduced myself. I have just brought a Greeves Anglian after being without one since my early 20s. So apologies to anyone who telephones in response to my ad in Leading Link saying I want one. I expect I'll add to the Anglian with other Greeves in due course. I live in West Sussex and am a Consultant Psychologist in the NHS and have been for a long time. However I am reducing my working hours heading to nil hours so as to spend more time doing what I want to do including things Greeves.

best wishes. I find this site and Leading Link excellent. Superb value for money

[Brian Thompson]

Welcome!

Hi Keith, and a warm welcome aboard the forum, and also to the GRA. It's great to have you with us!

Thank you for that extremely useful and informative post, a most welcome addition to the information already contained in this thread.

I have just received my copy of this months 'Real Classic' magazine (Dec. 2010,#80), and there is further interesting feedback from readers in the letters page (pp. 19.) on the ethanol problem. I will report back if there is anything helpful to impart once I have read it.

Congratulations on the aquisition of your Anglian too, and I hope it will give you a great deal of pleasure.

Many thanks for your kind and encouraging words about the forum and 'LL', it is very much appreciated and it's nice to hear that you are enjoying them so much. Thank you very much for your support Keith.

Brian.

[Keith Beach]

Thank you for the welcome Brian.

[Brian Thompson]

More on ethanol in fuels, inc. 'RC' readers comments.

I have just received my copy of this months 'Real Classic' magazine (Dec. 2010,#80), and there is further interesting feedback from readers in the letters page (pp. 19.) on the ethanol problem. I will report back if there is anything helpful to impart once I have read it.

There was a link provided by a reader to an interesting American website about the problem; http://www2.highlandstoday.com/conte...oblem-ethanol/

Another reader mentions the use of Avgas 100LL aviation gasoline (as have some of our members here) although cautions that it is not cheap (at £1.68 litre/£7.50 gallon), and is 'technically' illegal to use on the public highway as road fuel duty has not been paid on it. He notes that it can be sourced from local airfields (once 'relations have been established'!) and has the additional benefits of containing around 0.5g/litre of tetra ethyl lead, a handy benefit for old engines designed to run on leaded fuel. Apparently it can also withstand long term storage without breaking down or 'gelling', and due to it's intended use has to be resistant to 'knocking' and vapour lock.

Another reader reports good results from the use of 'Petseal' tank sealant (described as an ethanol-proof formulation), but that it must be applied correctly and that older tanks that have been treated with this (and other) similar treatments will need to be re-treated. The reader notes that a tank he treated with 'Petseal' in 1979 had been fine 'until a few months ago when it started to soften', but has been fine since re-treating with the same product. As a trader, he has sold 'Petseal' for a number of years without problems, and this includes the post-ethanol period. I should add that I have seen several accounts to the contrary from people that have used this product, but concede that this could be caused by incorrect application by the user. I have no personal experience with this product myself, so am unable to comment further. Interestingly, another company that markets 'Petseal' have also brought out yet another 'new product' being marketed as 'ethanol-proof' called 'Sureseal'; http://www.tankcareproducts.co.uk/ Once again, I cannot comment further on this product as I have no personal experience.

This also applies to another product that has recently been recommended in the press as 'the answer' to some enquires. This product is marketed by Caswell Europe, and is called 'Phenol Novolac Epoxy Gas Tank Sealer'. For more details click on this link; http://www.caswelleurope.co.uk/gastank.htm Once again, I have no personal experience of this product so cannot comment further on it's effectiveness or otherwise.

I thought it might be helpful to at least bring these products (some of them new) to members attention, in an effort to add to the information on this thread. What seems clear is that there is no clear product or solution (no pun intended!) that gets a 100% 'thumbs up' from the motorcycling community. Further, as it's still early days as manufacturers strive to bring an effective cure (is that yet another unintended pun?!) to the market, it remains very much a case of caveat emptor for us all, especially as these treatments work out at around £50 a pop....

It goes without saying that if any members have any 'first hand' experience of any succesful products they have used, then we'd all be delighted to hear about it!

Brian.

[Andy Z]

bio-ethanol scam

Taking a purely cynical view, someone is making a huge amount of money from this bio-ethanol scam. US exports of bio-ethanol have sky-rocketted, and we wonder why the price of petrol is still high, despite the price of crude dropping.
Someone has to pay for the ethanol, which of course is more expensive than petroleum.

[vectisgreeves]

Found the article it was in Motorcycle News see link below:

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/Products/productsresults/Parts-accessories/2010/November/nov2610-how-to-seal-an-old-petrol-tank/

[Brian Thompson]

Sealants marketed as being 'Ethanol-Proof'.

Thanks for that VG,

The article seems to bear out some of the points raised that I've read elsewhere (see my most recent post above) regarding failures of the original/standard 'Petseal' product, and the need to use types specifically marketed (or upgraded) as being ethanol proof formulations, as the final lines of the article illustrate;

"Once you’ve rinsed it out, leave it somewhere warm for several days to completely dry out before applying an ethanol-resistant sealant like Caswell GTS1750, Petseal Ultra or Tank Seal Products Sureseal."

Brian.

[greeves]

hi.

There is a topic on the forum site below about the modern fuels, it contains a message from Shell that may be of use.

http://bsac10c11c12.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2258.0


Thanks Charlie

[Brian Thompson]

Thanks Charlie, a really interesting, informative and helpful post/link.

Brian.

[Les Pilgrim]

"Modern", Petrol

Just received my latest issue of LL,"many thanks fellers), with the article on Ethanol treated petrol,and it's effect on the motivational bits of our old bikes!
I couldn't see any specific reference to effects on such items as crankshaft bearing seals,(dunno what polymers they are made of), or carb floats,(Cu based alloy?).
Am I getting paranoid in thinking that new petrols may have a damaging effect on these items,or what?
Any informed suggestions very welcome.
Hope this thread is in the right section,if not,my apologies, and please feel free to relocate it if necessary
Les.

[Brian Thompson]

Ethanol etc.

Hi Les,

No problem at all mate, and thanks for posting. We have a very extensive thread already on these matters, so rather than start a new one I've taken the liberty of moving it there for you. Hope that's ok.

It's well worth having a look through all the posts from members in this thread, as there is lots of information to look at on all aspects of this issue, as well as advice on some of the steps you can take to care for your machine. There is also information about the materials that can be susceptable to attack from ethanol, along with some suggested alternatives.

As you will see from what other members say, I think that at present everyone is still feeling their way around the problem until a clear and definitive solution begins to emerge. Part of the problem is all the 'variables' involved, such as different concentrations of ethanol from one brand of fuel to the next, different resins and materials used in fiberglass tank construction, correct/incorrect application of sealant products etc etc....It can all get a bit confusing at times...! However, It seems to me that progress is being made, bit by bit, as people get to grips with the problem, and I myself remain optimistic that a way forward will be forthcoming (fingers crossed!)

Hang in there Les. I for one don't believe that 'our' bikes are ready for the scrap heap just yet....!

Hope this helps a bit.

Brian.