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  • Oils for Gearbox and Chaincase.

    Following on from the interesting and useful thread on pre-mix ratios and oils, I thought it might be handy to start a new thread on suitable oils for the gearbox and primary drive chaincase in Villiers engines.

    In my TCS (32A), I use Castrol XL30 monograde in the gearbox-a bit expensive, but it did come in a nice tin (!) and it's what it says to use on the dipstick of course! (I was also advised that this could be used as a premix oil as well....!!!)

    In the primary drive chaincase I use Castrol TQF as I've been advised it seems to give the best results, although I appreciate that XL30 can be used here too. From what I understand though (and have been told), some oils seem to promote clutch slip, and others drag, even with a well set-up and adjusted clutch.

    Another advantage with Castrol TQF is that as it contains a red dye, it's easy to spot as it leaks all over your garage floor (well, mine does at any rate!), and it helps identify where it's coming from....!!!

    Ok then, over to our experts! Any thoughts lads?

    Thanks in anticipation,

    Brian.

  • #2
    Oils in Villiers engines - G/box & Chaincase.

    Hi Brian.

    When I started getting oily arms in the 60's, there wasn't much choice in Oils, Manufacturers yes, but it was pretty much monograde or else. Thus the recommendation on the 9E variants to use sae 20 or 30. Duckhams Q20/50 was a revelation, and the GREEN was a revelation, both factors causing it to be shunned by most of the gang of hooligans that I rode with. "The oil in my Bonnie is Black & Thick, it's always been black & thick, that green stuff goes all white & frothy." I must admit, at least one of my mates, running out of oil, tried Fairy liquid instead, (Well it looked and felt the same!), see story in early 'LL'.
    Gearboxes were mostly straight cut gears, very little hypoid pressure as in todays helical cut gears. Clutches, as in the Villiers, needed oil to (a) lubricate the chain drive, and (b) aid clutch plate slip when lifted. Some cooling action was also needed. Today, with so many 'dry' drives and air cooled clutches, this seems archaic. After all, cars and my BMWs and Moto Guzzi all had dry clutches.
    However, in practise, in the workshop, we found that too heavy an oil caused 'sticktion' on the gearshafts causing poor change action, too light saw erosion on the wear surface of gear teeth. sae 30 with a hint of molyslip did the trick every time. Clutches, we tried ATF for a while, as in tele forks this stuff was marvellous, but it was no better than sae 20 in operation. Eventually, with the phasing out of monogrades, we put 20/50 in everything! Now of course, its 10/40, but it's just as good. Polymer technology means that Clutch/Chain/Gear/bearing, it'll do the job admirably.

    So, for my money, it's supermarket's own brand 10/40, and change it every 2K or so. (If you find glittery yellow stuff it isn't gold.......its phosphor bronze!).

    One last point. Again, over the years, Gearbox casings become seperated. These were machined to fit, giving correct tolerances and clearances. I've rebuilt more than one using odd casings which had tight or clonky gear shifts. if this happens, check the layshaft endplay with plastigauge or similar. Matched casings are stamped at the lowest point of the case (H.19 or so...).

    Any use>

    Peter R.

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    • #3
      Wow....! 'Any use'....?!

      Thanks Peter, what a comprehensive and useful post, crammed with good advice!

      Any other thoughts to add please chaps?

      Funnily enough I used Duckhams in my old Ducati 900 back in the early 80's! I think it liked it....you can never really tell with old bevel Dukes, until the inevitable big end failure that is.....! Mine stayed in one peice thankfully, but it still ended up jumping out of second due to the (also inevitable!) worn dogs....Don't think that was down to the oil though!

      'For hands that do dishes'....etc!

      Anyway, back on topic eh!

      What do other member use in their Villiers engines?

      Brian.
      Last edited by Brian Thompson; 06/06/2010, 08:13 PM.

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      • #4
        I use what ever multi-grade happens to be about,I don't think that should be a problem since I only go at moderate speeds and not for long periods of time.

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        • #5
          I use Hypoy 80 gear oil in gear box & 10/40 engine oil in primary. Still have leaks though but just top up now and again. On the 2 & 4T I think the primary chain level is set a bit on the high side. Seems to find its own level.

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          • #6
            Oils, etc.,

            Just been under my bench again, reading the small print on oil cans...Shows you what an exciting life I lead doesn't it!..........

            Anyway, there is an anti-floctation element included in modern oils now so they don't froth up as they used to. Thus you get a film of oil on bearing surfaces instead of a 'mousse'.

            I'm now off to look for a 2ba screw that I lost last year...... well it beats going abroad for a holiday!

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            • #7
              The works trials engines always had EP90 in the gearbox & SAE10 in the chaincase .

              Gearboxes lasted longer on 90 grade .

              Chris

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              • #8
                I was informed that some modern auto transmission fluids now contain PTFE which can cause clutch slip if used in the primary chaincase - whether this is true I knoweth not!

                However, it could be the reason why some clutches slip when using these oils.

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                • #9
                  That might well be the case Rob. I was advised not to use the Castrol ATF available in Halfords etc as this was the TQ-D type and I'll bet this could be why. I sourced my bottle of the TQ-F type via the local Castrol classic oils specialist as it's not so widely stocked now.

                  Mind you, all this was before I'd heard what the forum members had to say...! There's been some really good advice and experience shared on the subject of oils in general, so thanks everyone!

                  (As an aside, according to a couple of mates in the trade modern 4 stroke Yamahas are run in on something suspiciously similar to 'Mazola'....hope it's Tescos 'extra value' then!)
                  Last edited by Brian Thompson; 16/06/2010, 01:47 PM.

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                  • #10
                    25DB Oil.

                    I'm giving my new 25DB a thorough going over, and wonder what the actual oil capacity in ccs. might be for the gearbox and the chaincase. The manual says to fill the box to the dipstick mark, and the chaincase to the level plug, but I can't resist knowing the actual amount, rather than being told "up to the level". I note too that there is a gearbox drain plug but I can't find one for the chaincase. Is this so or haven't I looked hard enough?

                    I'll probably just be changing the oils on the calendar rather than on the mileage, but as a matter of interest, did Greeves specify limits for changes?

                    Thanks in advance,

                    Frank

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Frank View Post
                      I'm giving my new 25DB a thorough going over, and wonder what the actual oil capacity in ccs. might be for the gearbox and the chaincase. The manual says to fill the box to the dipstick mark, and the chaincase to the level plug, but I can't resist knowing the actual amount, rather than being told "up to the level". I note too that there is a gearbox drain plug but I can't find one for the chaincase. Is this so or haven't I looked hard enough?

                      I'll probably just be changing the oils on the calendar rather than on the mileage, but as a matter of interest, did Greeves specify limits for changes?

                      Thanks in advance,

                      Frank
                      No amounts specified for primary, approx 1 pint for gearbox, just top up to levels (dipstick & level plug) & it will be fine. Villiers specify 5000 mile oil changes for both. There is no drain plug on primary. You are bound to get some leaks so just top up periodically. The oils specified are primary 20sae & gear box 30sae. As 30sae mono grade is a bit hard to come by standard 20/50multigrade is ok or even 80 sae gear oil.

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                      • #12
                        I've used the TQ-D type in my Scorpa and had no problem with clutch slip. To be honest, I hadnt realised it wasnt TQF until I read this and went and checked! With the amount of clutch use a modern trials iron gets, any problem would show up sooner rather than later...

                        For my Villiers engined stuff, its always been TQF in the clutch but in the gearbox, I have used anything from Castrol GTX through Mobil 1 (0-50 would you believe!) upto the various gear oils. I do change my oils pretty regularly however, especially after a trial through lots of water but cant say I have any wear issues.

                        The bronze bush in the high gear pinion always worries me a little as it seems pretty well shielded from getting a spalsh or two but it holds up quite well.

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                        • #13
                          Thanks, John

                          spot-on advice once again. Much appreciated.

                          Frank

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                          • #14
                            Re oils

                            Following from the comment on using multi-grade oil in the primary chain-case.
                            I have found that some multi-grade oils can seriously adversely affect clutch operation. When warmed up the clutch becomes very fierce in take-up and/or drags making gear changing very difficult. Has anyone else experienced the same effects?
                            To avoid this problem, I currently use light mono-grade oil in the primary chain-case and mono-grade 40 oil in the gearbox of my 4T with no apparent ill effects.
                            Mono-grade oils in SAE30 and 40 viscosities are now very readily available from Miller, Morris, and Castrol, furthermore,Villiers Services are now offering SAE 20 and 30 mono-grade oil for Villiers engines, and this would seem a solution for primary chain-cases and gearboxes respectively.
                            I believe that ATF (Automatic Transmission Fluid) has also been used successfully in primary chain-cases , do any members have experience of this?
                            Finally, I note that the filler plug of my 4T primary chain-case is over-stamped SAE10, I donít know of any sources or equivalents to this. Again can any other members advise?

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                            • #15
                              I use a a standard (Wilco brand) 10/40 in my 4T primary chain case with no problems. When I said 30sae monograde was difficult to obtain I meant from high street stockists & filling stations. Millers Castrol etc is only available from specialist stockists & costly especially with carriage
                              Last edited by John Wakefield; 25/06/2010, 08:01 AM.

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