Another tale of a smoky Greeves twin

[hawkie197]

I have never ridden a Greeves road bike before, so when I purchased a 1963 32DD I couldn’t wait to get it going and have a ride. The motor looked to be in reasonable condition, the crank useable, the bores worn but good enough to run.
The chaincase screws were loose and the gasket damaged, when I dismantled it the crankshaft nut was missing and there was excessive end float in the gearbox main shaft. I then dismantled the gearbox replacing all the o rings, seals and gaskets, rectified the end float problem and then reassembled it all. Next I replaced the tyres, cables, shock absorbers and brakes, then rewired it and replaced the high tension coils and retimed it.
After about 20 kicks it finally fired up, very rattly and very smoky on the LHS cylinder and the warmer it got the worse it got. I decided to take the cylinders off and have a look, only to discover that the gudgeon pins and little end bushes were very badly worn. I then machined up and fitted some new bushes and reamed them to suit some shortened 9E gudgeon pins and reassembled the lot.
Fired up first kick this time and the rattles greatly reduced, and pinking on the LHS cylinder, a quick ride up the road produced a smoke screen (from the LHS cylinder) that the Royal Navy would be proud of, so back to the workshop where I discovered that the chain case was covered in oil, it previously had been oil tight.
A lot of thought and couple of tinnies later I concluded that it must be a leaking LHS crankshaft seal that is causing the pinking (weak mixture), pressurising the chain case and also allowing oil into the crankcase and therefore making the smoke, I think that I’ll sleep on it and tackle it tomorrow.
To be continued, Pete from the Antipodes

[John Wakefield]

The drive side crankshaft oil seal can only be changed by splitting the crankcase as its fitted from the inside. The seal like most of the others in the engine is not a standard seal, they are available from Villiers Services http://villiersservices.co.uk/index....roducts_id=102
Might be worth having the crank checked whilst you have it apart as the centre bearing & oil seal may be worn.
Unless you have the right equipment ie press & alignment jig its not really possible to do this job yourself & you will need to seek out a specialist who can do this. Might be difficult in Australia. Simon Bateman can do it in the UK but the cost of sending it to him would be high.

[46T Sprocket]

There is always a way.

Any car repair shop in your area in Australia will have a press. Ask around, you will find somebody that can help out with removing and refitting those seals.

Assuming that is the issue? It may not be.

You sound handy. I'm sure you will find a way.

Good luck.
David.

[Brian Thompson]

Villiers/Greeves Spares In Australia/New Zealand?

Hi Pete, (JW),

What is the current Villiers/Greeves spares situation like 'down under' these days Pete? Where do you tend to source most of your parts from?

Another question that sprung into mind as I was typing this is what's the/your local 'club' scene like?

I know we have a fair few forum members from the antipodes and maybe this could also make for an interesting thread idea (or two!). I for one would love to hear more about how things 'work' Greeves-wise in your neck of the woods, as I'm sure would many others.

As an international club, it's always great to see our overeas members involved on here, and of course, one of the great advantages of having this forum as our communal 'meeting place'.

Brian.

[hawkie197]

Villiers/ Greeves in Oz

Hi Brian, As you know Australia is a very big place, with a small population, the whole of the UK fits into the state of Victoria where I live and it’s one of the small states.
As far as Greeves, In Victoria there were several dealers who sold Greeves only scramblers and a few road racers, any trials or road bikes have been privately imported, a local GRA member rarpos7 has a sizable collection of all the types.
One of the great things about Greeves and Villiers is that the different models share so many common parts, so if you have a spare scrambler and you want a trials bike it’s not very hard to do a conversion.
Villiers had a factory in Ballarat about 100km west of Melbourne, they only made industrial engines but did supply complete motorcycle engines and spare parts.
One of the main users of the motorcycle engines was the Victorian Railways, they had small motorised gangers trolleys powered by 9D,6E,8E,30C and 31C engines and 3 speed gearboxes, so there has been a plentiful supply of new and second hand parts available to keep the larger capacity motors going.
As far as clubs go, there are many that cater for the common marques, AMC, to Velocette but only one that really caters for two strokes and that is The British Two Stroke Club of Australia which is based in Victoria.
Cheers Pete from the Antipodes

[hawkie197]

Episode 2 of another tale of a smoky Greeves Twin

Tomorrow has arrived, a quick check of the workshop manual reveals that indeed the crankcases have to be split to replace the seal, the parts book tells me the seal is the same as a single gearbox and I have several in the spares department.
I personally have a vendetta against manufactures that fit special seals and bearings and will re-machine housings to accept standard over the counter ones where I can, this gives you access to new designs, technology and materials that will outperform the old stuff.
With the bike up on the bench and all the Villiers special tools laid out, I drained the chain case oil, removed the cover then dismantled the clutch and removed engine sprocket to reveal the offending seal.
While studying the end of the crankshaft I noticed a shim was there and when I removed that it became obvious that there was a sleeve there, this I removed with my fingers, I then measured the diameter of end of the crankcase to find that it was only 20 thou smaller than the new seal, was it possible? A quick rat through the tool box produced a small jemmy bar and bingo the seal was in my hand, now was it possible to replace it?
All sorts of plans were hatched but in the end I cut a cardboard disc that fitted over the crank up against the bearing sealed it up with grease to keep the swarf out and used a triangular bearing scraper to remove the lip, ½ an hour later I have fitted the new seal and have started refitting the primary drive.
Another ¾ of an hour later and I’ve got the bike running, no pinking and the smoke much reduced, a quick squirt down the road and all seems well until the motor gets really hot, now the smoky LHS exhaust has returned and oil is oozing out of the chain case gasket and screws both top and bottom.
I turned the motor off and then it came to me, I grabbed a big screwdriver removed the chain case filler cap drilled a 1/8 breather hole through it and problem solved, it appears that I sealed the chain case up that well that as it heated up the increase in pressure was forcing oil to leak out of the gasket and screws and also into the crankcase causing the smoke.
Now the bike is a joy to ride, lively with good power and handling that you can only dream about, the suspension is so good that I actually go looking for rough patches in the road.
The brakes are another issue. Cheers Pete from the Antipodes

[John Wakefield]

Glad you have sorted it Pete, you must have done a good job on sealing chain case as they normally leak oil/and air at the gearbox shaft. Back to the LH crank seal, I wonder why Villiers machined a lip & fitted seal from inside, the only suggestion I can make is that it was to stop the seal blowing out, the opposite one is fitted to the flywheel armature plate & again fitted from the inside.
Only time will tell, but the drive side seal you have fitted may work its way outwards with crankcase compression. I suppose if it does you could drill & tap say 4 holes & fit some retaining screws around the o/d.
I think Villiers specified too much oil in the chain case, if you fill it to the level plug it seems to leak a bit & find its own level. As long as there is enough oil for the chain to dip into its sufficient.

[Brian Thompson]

Villiers/Greeves in Australia.

Hi Pete,

Many thanks for the post(s) and additional info, really interesting stuff.

Pleased to hear that you're making good progress with your bike now too.

Please do keep us updated!

Brian.

[Guest]

Excellent post Pete. I bet there are a few guys looking for 1/16" dia drills to clear out the breather hole.
It's one of those jobs. We've all been there, you spend hours trying to fix something only to realise that it was something dead simple. I had forgotten that one too!!
Isn't there a breather hole high up on the face of the inner chaincase, or is my memory going tots up again.

The last Villiers twins that I rebuilt were back in the mid 90s. I bet I've forgotten lots of "the knowledge".

Thanks, Keith from Blighty

[John Wakefield]

Chain case breather on twins

Your right Keith, there is a breather hole in the upper edge of the inner chain case which mates with a drilling in the LH crank case half through to the 'well' below the carb. Any oil from chain case or fuel from carb drains through another hole at the bottom of the 'well' through to the bottom of crank case.

[Guest]

Your right Keith, there is a breather hole in the upper edge of the inner chain case which mates with a drilling in the LH crank case half through to the 'well' below the carb. Any oil from chain case or fuel from carb drains through another hole at the bottom of the 'well' through to the bottom of crank case.

I was doubting my memory but can breathe easy now.

Keith

[mayfield]

L/H crank seal.

I recently had a seal blow out onto the engine sprocket,caused because someone prior to my ownership had scraped off the slight ridge which stops this happening,an oversize (approx.7thou)was recommended and supplied by Simon(Nametab)and carefully tapped in from the outside has held up so far.

[hawkie197]

Pictures of project

Marcelle, I did intend to document the repair with photos but got carried away and only took a couple, here is one showing the seal just after I replaced it and another showing my latest project re-machining the dogs on a top gear.
I remove the bulk in the milling machine and then grind the under cut and finish it off in the tool and cutter grinder.
Cheers Pete from the Antipodes

[hawkie197]

Breather holes

Thanks John and Keith, Just pulled an inner chain case from the spares department, I made a new chain case gasket and it has covered the hole, this is the first twin that I have had, so it's all bit of a learning curve.
So it looks like it's off with chain case and fix the original breather and plug up the filler cap.
Cheers Pete from the Antipodes

[John Wakefield]

Thanks John and Keith, Just pulled an inner chain case from the spares department, I made a new chain case gasket and it has covered the hole, this is the first twin that I have had, so it's all bit of a learning curve.
So it looks like it's off with chain case and fix the original breather and plug up the filler cap.
Cheers Pete from the Antipodes

I bet there are lots with blocked breathers where home made gaskets have been fitted, must check mine. You need to keep an eye on that oil seal as I thought (& confirmed by 'mayfield') the lip was there to stop the seal blowing out. Should be easy to make a retaining plate attached with 4 small screws if it does come out.