197 Scottish.

[drabble]

I bought a 197cc Scottish last November but I have only just got around to splitting the clutch basket and crank. Presume my next step is following the trail in Leading Link for spare Villiers parts. It has had DMW elecronic ignition fitted but otherwise I was assured it was original though not concours. Having said that I was the only one bidding on Ebay for it !
Believe I have basic mechanical knowledge but was wandering if there are any members around Northamptonshire that can give me some pointers on what is correct and what is not ! My only previous knowledge of Greeves was some 40 years ago !!

[Peter Rotherham]

Greeves 20 T? Scottish Trials.

Hello Drabble, the best bet is to get the Frame No onto the correct section of the Forum (Trials) so that we know what we're talking about. Over and above that, a couple of decent photos will help.
You say that you've commenced a strip down, but not why. With a DMW Ignition on it, there's obviously been some care taken about making it run, which is, (unless you plan to use it for display only), one of the major factors of any machine. If you had a Greeves 40 years ago, you probably were familiar with the vagaries of the Flywheel Ignition. I know that there's lots of decent Greeves folk who will help, but we all need to know what you wish to achieve in order to guide you. Hope this helps......Peter.

[Brian Thompson]

197 Scottish.

Hi drabble, and a warm welcome aboard the forum.

Thanks for posting, and let's see what we can do to help you with your bike.

I've moved this thread to 'Trials machines' as Peter suggests, and as he says, if you can give us all a bit more info and perhaps a few pics it will give everyone a bit more to go on.

As a GRA member you will be able to post pics ok on here if you have a digital camera. If you need any help with it there are a few other posts with details on what to do, or you can click on the FAQ tab for instructions (top of the page on the left, to the right of 'User CP'.) Or if you prefer, just send me a PM and I'll send some instructions for you if that would help.

Cheers,

Brian.

[drabble]

197 scottish

Thank you both. I bought it running but the clutch basket was seized. After removing this I had also noticed the primary chain was very loose so I removed the nut holding the sprocket. The thread has been very badly damaged on the crank shaft. I expected all this because it stated on Ebay "The engine starts and runs but it is rattly and needs an overhaul"
I then took off the cylinder head and cylinder. The piston is marked but as I only own a 0-1" mic I haven't gone further. Also some of the casing has seen better days. The gear box appears ok but don't want to split it for no reason. However neither do I want to re-build the engine only to find I should have stripped the gearbox !
I have taken loads of photos at every stage of taking it to bits as my memory isn't what it was 40 yrs ago, so posting a picture shouldn't be a problem. The frame number is quoted as 8007/TA on V5.
You ask what do I want to do with it ?
I want to ride it on roads locally. My son takes part in motocross so that takes up many weekends and I own a 2yr old Street Triple to travel further.
I suppose I don't want to make a mess of something so old ! The silencer and front pipe are held together by a bit of rubber. Are both bits from a jumble sale or is one small bit missing ? The engine has a speedo connection but I thought the connection came from the rear wheel ? ( at the moment the speedo is just for show and not connected). These are just a few points that I have noticed.
Will load some phootos asap
Thanks and regards

[drabble]

Picture of bike prior to purchase

I attach a copy of bike prior to purchase if it helps. Please note it was bought from a gentleman in Lincolnshire who is probably also a GR member and I am more than happy with the purchase. Any comments with regard to the state of it do not reflect any dissatisfaction

[John Wakefield]

The engine has a speedo connection but I thought the connection came from the rear wheel ?
The speedo drive should come from rear hub but your rear hub does not appear to have a drive (scrambler wheel probably) you can use the speedo drive off gearbox but this may not be accurate as any change in final drive sprockets affect the speedo calibration. Probably best to leave it as it is, disconnected & fit a cycle type digital speedo to be road legal.

[drabble]

Thanks.
What is the correct parts on the silencer (see pic)
and the piston, through the bad marks states 1073 ? (see pic)

[John Wakefield]

The exhaust pipe is too small diameter, should be a push fit into silencer so you need a new exhaust pipe, the rubber sleeve then goes over the joint held with two clips to seal the joint.
The piston is nackered so you need a new one try Villiers Services http://www.villiersservices.co.uk/
Standard size is 59mm so you will need to measure it to see what oversize it is. Personally I would go for next oversize (assuming its not at maximum) & have cylinder rebored.
Looks like you have bought a lemon, O the joys of eBay. Hope you did not pay too much for it.

[drabble]

Hmmm
Thank you for your help. All I would say is I am about to split the gearbox of a KTM SXF 250 which failed at Landrake last Sunday. From talking to Villiers I expect to strip and fully restore the Greeves engine for less than what the KTM will cost. So which is the lemon ?

[Peter Rotherham]

20ta

Hi again, OK, so you've got the bike which, despite it's failings, seems pretty genuine. None of the problems are unexpected, and are ones I've come across many times.
Exhaust pipes. These are available new from a variety of sources, many copied from new/old stock originals. Be careful though. Minor variations in the mounting angle of the engine in the cradle over model ranges produced minor angle changes in pipe joints. Villiers Services had some superb TD pipes made from an original, except that they didn't know that the 'original' had been cut short at it's exit. I gave Stuart a genuine, untouched TA pipe to copy at Stafford 2 - 3 years ago, so I'd try them. Also, watch the silencer. This was a basic Villiers type 'cut & shut' around the top of the suspension mount. Again different fittings/frames took different measurements. Check it fits (if you can) before you buy.
Pistons. Looks like yours has suffered either detonation, or more likely a foreign object going through. Bits of stone or piston ring usually! Luckily the 58mm Pistons are far more plentiful than the 66mm ones. Simon at Nametab should help, or a good autojumble usually turns one up.
Speedo Drive. The Gearbox take off was an option on Villiers engines. Remember these units were fitted to all sorts of 'Bikes and light cars. There are two types of drive pinions in these, one for each of the two gearbox variants, (in Greeves cases, simply, Road/Trials or Close/standard/wide). As John says, Greeves usually had a drive on the rear wheel via a 90degree drive in the British Hub backplate. However some backplates had no provision for this drive, again as John says. So Gearbox mounting was an option for restorers/rebuilders. As to true readings, well, it's difficult. Obviously your Trials machine would have had it's gear ratios worked out at the design stage. The rate of turn on the Speedo drive cable to the Speedo Head would have been known, and Smiths would have produced a 'D' speedo of the right ratio to read true. Each Smiths speedo has a type number on its face. A specialist can tell you from this number what that speedo was intended for. My Norton Rev counter was for an AMC (AJS) 650 so I had it altered to suit my 'bike. I've a TDS with an ex GPO Bantam 'D' speedo that reads under true speed.....and as I replaced the big trials sprocket with a small (ex James?) sprocket, it simply flies along the road, probably doing 75 to 80 flat out, but reading 50mph! John's idea of the digital speedo is a good one that many have done. If you wish to keep the 'original' set up, then build it, run it and get someone to lead or follow you at say 20mph, and see what your speedo reads.
Clutch. Siezed? Ok, these tend to get abused. the baskets get heavily indented by the plate tangs and the springs get too compressed. Often someone takes a chisel to the end cap and usually leaves out the single ball bearing in the pushrod set up. No oil and they overheat and bond together.
Loose chain.....a tricky one this. You have to build the gearbox & Crankcase up then, lying the assy on it's side put the primary drive sprockets (Inc the clutch basket mounted on its rollers), and chain on, (no clutch plates needed yet), and check chain tension. You adjust this by placing extra gaskets between the Crankcase and gearbox. Again, here there are variants of size. Villiers made larger/smaller drive sprockets and casings for different endusers. After 40 years or so, bits can get mixed. If you can get the Villiers Manual (?VEC 545?), it gives you the exact part no's and sizes. (I never go to an autojumble without mine!).

So then........does that help so far......?

[drabble]

Peter
Very very helpful. Thank you and regards
Pete