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'Shoestring Sport' (DR's Trials Tips) Article - Motorcycle Mechanics, January 1966.

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  • #16
    You know, it could be a simple case of fashion, availability and cost that currently dictates the lack of Greeves trials bikes in use at present.

    Must have fashion over the last good few years for competitive mounts; Pre Unit Ariels, then BSA B40's and C15's, followed by Tiger Cubs, James and now Bantams. No-doubt I've missed a few along the way.

    Success by someone riding something even at club level breeds copycat desire, even if the person whose replicating that particular mount hasn't got the riding ability to achieve those same levels of success. Its the bike, can't be my riding ability mentality kind of thought process.

    As those various 'in fashion' bikes at the moment gain in popularity modifications are taken to new levels by those selling trick parts and they deliberately create desire (like Apple computers) as must haves by the followers to be allegedly competitive. Needless to say prices rise, availability wanes (or simply priced out of most peoples pockets) and new marques are sought that are more plentiful and therefore cheaper to start modifying and so on it goes.

    Does the engine in Greeves trials bikes need lifting, does the trail need altering? I don't know. What I do heavily suspect is that a good rider on a standard unmodified Greeves will beat a poor rider on a extensively modified version of the same bike.
    Also riders modify their bikes and engines to suit there own unique riding styles. What suits one guy is unrideable by another.

    Finally and this is where I think the Greeves popularity for use is slightly limited is that its far easier to find Cub and Bantam parts readily at cheaper prices. If you want to build a bike from parts as many people do now instead of putting up money upfront for a complete bike these models and probably others offer greatly availability of parts more readily.

    Case in point, second hand pair of BHC full width hubs on e-bay that require re-build start at £450.00. I reckon I could get a nice set of cub hubs with new alloy rims built for less.

    As a final thought, as I'm building a Bantam at present, a well known and very successful rider recently said to me that the Bantam would be a far better machine with a 250cc Villiers lump in it and not to waste lots of my hard earned cash trying to make the Bantam motor work as I wanted it to….
    Note to oneself: modify relatively plentiful and cheap Bantam frame, borrow motor from my alleged highly un-competive TFS and guess what I'm a winner, maybe not!

    Anyhow, back to the workshop, must lift that Greeves motor onto the top of the tank and chop a couple of inches out of my leading link forks. I'll be taking orders to carry out these mods as soon as I can get a top flight rider to win on it at the Scottish, Talmag or such like…….

    Although highly competitive by nature I can't help thinking that riding old bikes in trials or scrambles without a championship or trophies being a necessity / requirement would get unused bikes out of sheds and garages and into use. Shouldn't it be about getting a ride on whatever we have stashed away and having fun on it rather than building something to be ultra competitive.
    I believe that more folk will end up trail riding a lot of ex and alleged now un-competative trials and scrambles bikes for fun at the cost of entries in 'competitions'

    Sorry I don't post often, I rant too much and its far safer if I spend my spare time in the workshop building a full size replica of a MX4 out of Lego…..

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    • #17
      Great post, i do agree with your " get the bike out & have a bit of fun ", but if you do want to try & do well, you have to have a bike that will cut the mustard " so to speak ".
      Quality riders, do tend to ride the best avalable, so the average rider then has to get the best he can get, just to finish in a rubbish postion, half hour behind....
      Talent & expensive bikes seem to go hand in hand.... the rest of us, have whats left...

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      • #18
        Quite agree aswell

        I used to regularly ride a 1955 James captain road bike with an 8e villiers egg modded for trials use, I had some good results on the little bike against more fashionable machines. The bike was good (competitive)at clubman level but totally out of its depth in the expert class.

        I now ride a well modded Francis barnett 1958 with an original frame, norton forks, marcelle barrelled 37a, sticky tyres etc, no replica frames here guv.

        My point is this, are my results much better on my more fashionable fb than my older standardish James? Not really in my opinion, it's just easier to get the same result with less effort.

        What did I enjoy riding more? Well it has to be the James as it felt to me like it was more down to me than the machine.

        Let's get these greeves out and enjoy them for what they are, living history. That's what they were made for, riding

        The guy I brought the Barnett off sold it to build a new replica Dot, he spent a lot of money on the project, is it much better? Who knows?

        Will I be altering my tfs from standard? Not a chance.

        Sorry for going off thread Brian,

        Scott
        Last edited by scott151; 17/01/2014, 09:54 AM.

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        • #19
          Why not just take a leaf out of the book according to the Greeves Scrambles series?
          I recall scrambling in the 1960's. Just about everyone was so very serious about it all, there was such an intense competitive atmosphere in the paddock, no-one (it seemed) spoke to anyone else otherwise than to "psyche" up the competition ................. hopefully this is not the case in the present-day trials scene?
          The Dave Harper series is so attractive to so many because it overcomes so much of that. Riders turn out at the meetings as much for the social side of things as for anything else. It doesn't matter (all that much) how competitive or "trick" your bike is, you can just ride against yourself, against the track, or find someone of equally dubious ability to "play" with out on the track.
          Ride just to enjoy the experience, for goodness sake! It can still be a shoestring sport!!

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          • #20
            Shoestring sport

            All the comments on this subject are spot on, what we need to do is like Rob and I have said for ages, do the events that are catering for us in mind, like the GRA trial this year ,one of many events this that we rode in that were suitable for origional Greeves.

            The win at all cost will no doubt continue in certain events, notably the Miller series, and similar Northern events,the sections at this level are now as hard as riding in a modern bike event in general.

            The things that some Clerk of the courses expect is verging on the side of madness , and if riders with the latest trick bikes want this then its down to them, vote with your feet i say ask around with those that you know and see whats about in your area.

            Last year I rode in various events and know what not ones to do this year, Rob has put on the web some of these, so enjoy yourself in 2014

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            • #21
              I live within the South-Midland centre and watch the conversations by their Trials riders on Facebook. The new "No Stop" rules are being roundly condemned as being a defunct system, so sections are deliberately tight to accommodate the bouncers. Yes they have a variety of routes, but in my observation, the easy ones are probably too easy for a decent rider (NOT ME!) while the difficult routes are not suitable for original bikes.
              I have floated a suggestion to have events split into Expert / Intermediate or Novice /Classic categories to make things easier for the course designers (instead of trying to cover all classes), but this fell on deaf ears because all the subscribers to this Facebook page ride new style bikes and they get what they want regardless of what happens to the others.

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              • #22
                GRA friendly trials events

                All, some really useful comments here - I think a big takeaway for me (the Friday Curry as it were) is that if you have a greeves trials bike and you are not an expert - then the GRA friendly events list from Rob sounds like a very good idea......I read the report on the Mike Kemp trial and that seems sensible with route options for differing bikes/rider abilities........

                At the end of the day for me as a relative trials numpty - it would be about riding for fun with folks who are enjoying a ride............ I have to date done two modern Trials last year on a Gas GAs and a Sherco - so I understand Brian your comments on trick bikes and routes...........they were both AMCA trials events in the Midlands - and unlike yours they did have expert intermediate and novice rider classes with different routes........Interestingly about 20% of the bikes were twinshocks (mainly TY yam's ) and in the expert class - a TY Yam twinshock came second !! - this mirrors some of the other posts about rider skill over bike.

                I am toying with getting a twinshock trials bike - but looking at some of the prices Brian for trick replica bikes and bearing in mind it is only for Fun not serious competition you have persuaded me that I might as well go for my favourite MArque a Greeves and do some riding with enthusiasts! Look out Dick - here I come

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