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TFS bikes loaned to road racers

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  • TFS bikes loaned to road racers

    The thread on John Surtees mentions the 24TFS (HPU124B) that was loaned by the factory to John. Apparently there were two others loaned to 'star' road racers of the day. The other two being:
    JWC48C to Mike Hailwood - untaxed since 29/10/86 was with a GRA member.
    BTR51B to Phil Read - untaxed since since 1/8/89 is it still around?
    HPU124B the Surtees bike is not listed on DVLA so may be in shed or collection somewhere or has been re registered & lost its id.
    Did the factory ever recall the bikes or did they stay with the riders to be disposed by them at some later date?

  • #2
    Hi
    This what I know or to the best of my belief is correct.
    I would guess that the 3 star road racers were given the opportunity to purchase the bikes at an advantageous price.
    Mike Hailwood purchased his (JWC 48C).It then passed through many owners over the years and lost its Hailwood connection. It surfaced and the Hailwood connection realised again within the last 20/30 years. It has been well restored by a well known GRA member and now can be seen now and again at classic shows. Although not taxed I'm pretty certain it will be on SORN.

    Don't know if Phil Read bought his bike (BTR 51B) but it surfaced in the late 80's as a ride to work machine owned by a then GRA member Bill Swan. Untaxed since 1989 it's now probably in the back of some ones shed.
    Interestingly BTR is a Southampton number so wonder if the bike was supplied through Lawton and Wilson who were the Greeves dealers in Southampton. Or perhaps Greeves bought it back from Lawton and Wilson

    Don't know if John Surtees bought his bike (HPU124B) but no trace of it has ever surfaced. Not on DVLA of course. So probably does not exist now.

    That's it in a nutshell, perhaps others can add more.
    Regards
    The Lad (and TFS owner)
    Last edited by justalad; 13/03/2017, 05:32 PM. Reason: next information

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    • #3
      Originally posted by justalad View Post
      Hi
      This what I know or to the best of my belief is correct.
      I would guess that the 3 star road racers were given the opportunity to purchase the bikes at an advantageous price.
      Mike Hailwood purchased his (JWC 48C).It then passed through many owners over the years and lost its Hailwood connection. It surfaced and the Hailwood connection realised again within the last 20/30 years. It has been well restored by a well known GRA member and now can be seen now and again at classic shows. Although not taxed I'm pretty certain it will be on SORN.

      Don't know if Phil Read bought his bike (BTR 51B) but it surfaced in the late 80's as a ride to work machine owned by a then GRA member Bill Swan. Untaxed since 1989 it's now probably in the back of some ones shed.
      Interestingly BTR is a Southampton number so wonder if the bike was supplied through Lawton and Wilson who were the Greeves dealers in Southampton. Or perhaps Greeves bought it back from Lawton and Wilson

      Don't know if John Surtees bought his bike (HPU124B) but no trace of it has ever surfaced. Not on DVLA of course. So probably does not exist now.

      That's it in a nutshell, perhaps others can add more.
      Regards
      The Lad (and TFS owner)
      Thanks 'justalad' very informative. JWC 48C is shown as UNTAXED presumably because it has not been taxed since the SORN ruling came into effect 31st January 1998. There is no need to SORN if the bike had not been taxed prior to that date.
      The frame number of BTR 51B is 24TFS184 so maybe someone with a copy of the despatch records or loan register can confirm if it went via Lawton & Wilson. Bill Swan wrote about this machine in LL 42 1991 OCT
      Last edited by John Wakefield; 13/03/2017, 06:22 PM.

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      • #4
        I have the 4th bike that was sold, or gifted as little was said at the time i have the dispatch record and it went to Geoff Duke personally in the Island and not to his Garage businesses ?it was built in November 1964 and left the factory on 1st December 1965 frame number 24 TFS 171 and was never registered as it was in the Isle of Man engine number is 453DC 3865.

        It came back to the Southampton Area possibly Lawton and Wilson, I purchased it at a show in June 2007 and it is now registyered age related AOR 493 B

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        • #5
          Thanks for the further information.
          Interestingly, we now know that there was a fourth machine to Geoff Duke and its frame number.
          And the frame number of the Phil Read machine (how did you find that?).
          Incidentally both frame numbers are close to my own TFS.

          Does anyone know the frame number of HPU 124B, the John Surtees machine?

          Dick, surely you mean your machine left the factory, 1st December 1964??
          Did you know of the Duke connection before you bought it?

          John, you will be correct on the SORN status or otherwise (JWC 48C).

          Regards
          The Lad
          Last edited by justalad; 13/03/2017, 09:08 PM. Reason: correction

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          • #6
            24TFS 171 went direct to Geoff Duke's IoM dealership.

            24TFS 184 went to Lawson and Wilson

            Do we know the frame numbers of the other two? (Dave?)

            By the way, thanks John for starting a new thread. I didn't want the John Surtees thread getting clogged up with this issue and was thinking of separating them. I'll correct my post on the earlier thread.
            Colin Sparrow

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            • #7
              Colin,
              I know that the bike that Geoff had did not go to the Dealership in the Isle of man as he had a Scottish and my TFS ,direct to him as no other Greeves were ever listed as delivered to the Isle of Man you may know that he had his Dealership in Liverpool?

              Sorry Colin, i beg to differ with you on this point, no offense taken

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Colin Sparrow View Post
                24TFS 171 went direct to Geoff Duke's IoM dealership.

                24TFS 184 went to Lawson and Wilson

                Do we know the frame numbers of the other two?
                JWC48C is 24TES240
                HPU124B will be recorded at Essex Records Office, Chelmsford, it was registered in December 1964, almost certainly to Invacar Ltd, if anyone is that way, free to look up if you go in person but allow at least an hour. It may of course be on the loan bike list
                Last edited by John Wakefield; 14/03/2017, 02:07 PM.

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                • #9
                  Ok John,
                  But he never sold any other Greeves Machines in the Isle of Man be they Scramblers, Road Racers Trials or in fact Road bikes , ???

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                  • #10
                    And we know who has the Hailwood bike dont we

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      "Don't know if Phil Read bought his bike (BTR 51B)"

                      Haha....somewhat unlikely.....

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hi
                        Why should it be 'somewhat unlikely' that Read should purchase his machine?

                        Another noticeable thing is that the frame numbers are far from being consecutive. Does this suggest that the loans were made over several months in the second half of 1964 and the first half of 1965?

                        Also perhaps the factory didn't have a new TFS to hand for Phil Read and had to buy one back from Lawton and Wilson that was already registered and taxed?

                        Could I suggest that Geoff Duke ordered the bike though his dealership and then used it as his personal bike?
                        I remember seeing a press article from the time of Geoff Duke using a TFS to survey the routes for the 1965 ISDT in the Isle of Man. Almost certainly Dick's bike??
                        Now I'm no road race expert but by this time surely Geoff Duke would have long retired as a Grand Prix racer so any publicity effected by the loan of a TFS would have been limited??


                        Regards
                        The Lad
                        Last edited by justalad; 15/03/2017, 09:56 AM. Reason: Correction (Read for Surtees)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          That is exactly my point entirely Tony, i thought the same ,i was the first to register my bike ! which ties in with what information i have gathered, there are lots of grey areas that come into play when reading reports, and books, that are written about all makes of Cars and Motorcycles, even GREEVES

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                          • #14
                            Interesting thread.

                            Phil Read did buy a TDS Scottish from kings of Luton..its in Colin's book..

                            What's interesting is Kings only ever sold 2 TDS Scottishs.. My Dads is one of these machines.. Shame nobody knows which one Phil Read had??

                            Personally I'd rather own a TFS ridden by DR or similar..

                            Scott

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by scott151 View Post
                              Interesting thread.

                              Phil Read did buy a TDS Scottish from kings of Luton..its in Colin's book..

                              What's interesting is Kings only ever sold 2 TDS Scottishs.. My Dads is one of these machines.. Shame nobody knows which one Phil Read had??

                              Personally I'd rather own a TFS ridden by DR or similar..

                              Scott
                              This is the TDS that Phil Read bought from Kings http://www.mortonsarchive.com/v/stoc...ns-media-group (click on pic to enlarge it)
                              Unfortunately the number plate is not readable, what is the number of you dads?
                              Last edited by John Wakefield; 16/03/2017, 11:26 PM.

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