Greeves Scottish Wheels Bearings

[Colin Ladd]

Hello

Can anyone help find any information regarding the front and rear wheel bearings of Greeves 1961 Scottish. In particular size, type and availability.

Thank You

[John Wakefield]

Wheel bearings

Not sure of size but they are standard ball races available at any bearing stockist. Just quote the number stamped on the old bearing.
Villiers Services (01384 265797) do them for about £4 each if you cannot source locally. Best to use sealed ones.

[Brian Thompson]

Wheel bearing clearance.

With wheel bearings especially, it's also a good idea to check the 'clearance' rating on the old bearing as well. Good savings can be had by purchasing bearings from a local engineering stockist (instead of a M/C vendor), but make sure you are getting the right ones!

The 'clearance' is the amount of 'free play' in the bearing, and during manufacture each bearing is 'graded' so it can be used in different applications. This is stamped next to the serial number, and with imperial bearing sizes it is usually in the form of a circle stamp (i.e. OO), and metric sizes have a number (i.e. C3.) In the latter case the 'C' stands for clearance. The greater the number (or number of circles) the greater the clearance. As well as allowing for different tolerances in manufacture, this also allows for heat expansion, crucial in something like a wheel bearing, or where the bearing is an 'interferance' fit (like in an engine case or hub etc) where the clearance can 'close up' slightly when fitted.

I'm not an engineer by any means (!), but it's a handy bit of info I picked up years ago (from someone who was!) that I thought I'd pass on.

Brian.

[Colin Ladd]

Many thanks for your responses. I can now go and sort my somewhat slack rear wheel bearings that only just got through it's MOT having been off the highways for the past 25 years. I've also got it reregistered from 'Bicycle' to 'Historic' and so didn't have to pay for road tax.

[Brian Thompson]

Good to hear Colin!

Brian.

[Gudgeon]

Wheel Bearings

Sorry, a bit late with this information, but normally bearing size is dictated by the bore diameter. Metric bearing bores incremented in steps of 5mm so if you measure the spindle and it comes out as to as a figure close to a 5mm step you can be pretty sure it is metric. If so replacements should be easy as all metric range bearings are designated to an ISO standard consistent across all manufacturers.
Imperial sized bearings were not so consistently designated. I don't know what the Hub Manufacturer was using in 1961 but certainly in 1965 British Hub were using metric bearings in their alloy full width hubs (I have just replaced a pair).
If you have any problems contact me with the housing dimensions, and I may be able to help. (I worked for RHP in the 1970's an still have the reference manuals).
The clearences refered to may not be too relavant. C2, C3, C4 and CN were all different grades of radial internal clearence:CN= Normal clearence (marked 00), C2 = less than normal (0), C3 = more than normal (000) and C4 was more than C3 (0000). I suspect that only in special cases clearences apart from CN were specified by designers.

[Bearingman]

Sorry, a bit late with this information, but normally bearing size is dictated by the bore diameter. Metric bearing bores incremented in steps of 5mm so if you measure the spindle and it comes out as to as a figure close to a 5mm step you can be pretty sure it is metric. If so replacements should be easy as all metric range bearings are designated to an ISO standard consistent across all manufacturers.
Imperial sized bearings were not so consistently designated. I don't know what the Hub Manufacturer was using in 1961 but certainly in 1965 British Hub were using metric bearings in their alloy full width hubs (I have just replaced a pair).
If you have any problems contact me with the housing dimensions, and I may be able to help. (I worked for RHP in the 1970's an still have the reference manuals).
The clearences refered to may not be too relavant. C2, C3, C4 and CN were all different grades of radial internal clearence:CN= Normal clearence (marked 00), C2 = less than normal (0), C3 = more than normal (000) and C4 was more than C3 (0000). I suspect that only in special cases clearences apart from CN were specified by designers.

If I recall correctly, my Scottish TE took 6202 bearings in the tin hubs, but I used double sealed...a 6202-2RS.

Regards,
Ken Sykes

[Phil Hyde]

Wheel Bearings

For a trials bike the most important part of the bearing ID code is RS. For most manufacturers this means Rubber Seal. This is essential for keeping out water from either wet sections and/or pressure washing after the event.

Hope this is of use

[Brian Thompson]

Wheel Bearings.

Sorry, a bit late with this information, but normally bearing size is dictated by the bore diameter. Metric bearing bores incremented in steps of 5mm so if you measure the spindle and it comes out as to as a figure close to a 5mm step you can be pretty sure it is metric. If so replacements should be easy as all metric range bearings are designated to an ISO standard consistent across all manufacturers.
Imperial sized bearings were not so consistently designated. I don't know what the Hub Manufacturer was using in 1961 but certainly in 1965 British Hub were using metric bearings in their alloy full width hubs (I have just replaced a pair).
If you have any problems contact me with the housing dimensions, and I may be able to help. (I worked for RHP in the 1970's an still have the reference manuals).
The clearences refered to may not be too relavant. C2, C3, C4 and CN were all different grades of radial internal clearence:CN= Normal clearence (marked 00), C2 = less than normal (0), C3 = more than normal (000) and C4 was more than C3 (0000). I suspect that only in special cases clearences apart from CN were specified by designers.

Hi Gudgeon,

Many thanks indeed for supplying this information and for properly clarifying the 'specs'. As I said, I'm no engineer and it's great that we have people on here like yourself who can point us in the right direction.

The reason I posted what I know is that years ago one of my musician friends at the time and his girlfriend (both very young) lost their lives in a tragic accident. They were driving along the motorway in a partially restored Morris Minor that he'd been working on, when one of the wheels sheared clean off causing them to cross the central reservation and hit oncoming traffic. Speaking to the family later, a representive of SKF had been involved in the investigation as it was a wheel bearing that had failed (siezed solid), causing the wheel to be torn off. I can't supply more specific information than that, but I'm pretty sure he had replaced the wheel bearings when he changed the wheels to 'alloy' types-he was going for a 'hot-rod' style with the car.

Obviously I can't see many of us taking a Greeves on the motorway anytime soon, but understandably, ever since then I've been very mindful of fitting the correct type when replacing them on any of my bikes. When we all went to pay our respects at the funeral we had to stand in the church grounds as there was no room in the church...these things stay with you I guess.

Thanks again for the post and information Gudgeon, it's very much appreciated.

Brian.

[Gudgeon]

Rolling along

Regarding wheel bearings,
Shielded or sealed bearings are well worth fitting; these prevent dust and water getting into the bearing but also prevent grease escaping into the brake drum far more effectively than the old felt seals.
Shielded bearings (denoted by a Z or 2Z suffix) are suitable for a normal indoor environment where conditions are not excessively dirty or dusty, Sealed (with the RS or 2RS suffix) are suitable for dirty conditions, so they are certainly better for trials bikes. Shielded bearings are probably adequate for most wheels, however the cost difference is small and I used sealed bearings when I recently replaced a pair of 6204’s in a roadster rear hub. Note that double shielded/sealed bearings are sealed for life and the grease cannot be renewed (ok, you can piggle a seal out, but will destroy it in the process).

If it’s any use, for the 6204: the 6000 Type code denotes a single row radial ball bearing, the 2 denotes light Series (9 is Extremely Light, 0 is Extra Light, 3 is Medium, 4 is Heavy). The last two characters indicate the bore size, multiply the number by 5 to get the bore (ie 04 is 20mm, 05 is 25mm, 07 is 35mm). However, there are 4 exceptions: 00 is 10mm, 01 is 12mm, 02 is 15mm, and 03 is 17mm.
Metric designations were ISO standardised. On Imperial size bearings, bore sizes generally increased in 1/8 inch steps, but designations were not standardised across manufacturers – so the best of luck! (I do have some old catalogues and I believe there is a vintage bearing supplier in Derbyshire).
Brian, I don’t know if this is the right thread to raise it, but I would appreciate any detail information on the correct assembly procedure for British Hub Co full width alloy hubs. This is the type where the spindle only has one nut which clamps everything up and holds the wheel in the swinging arm.
I have the Greeves service sheets including the exploded view. The design of the assembly indicates that the bearings must be correctly spaced to avoid overloading them and for the cush drive to work when the nut is tightened. My original bearings had been overloaded (hence the replacement mentioned above) and I found some shims not shown on the exploded diagram. I replaced the bearings and adjusted the shims to achieve satisfactory running, but would like to know if I’ve missed anything.

[Brian Thompson]

Full Width Hubs Assembly Procedure.

Brian, I don’t know if this is the right thread to raise it.......

Thanks for another great post Gudgeon, and the really helpful information.

Regarding the above I wondered if a little clarification might help? With your 'added-on' query about 'Full Width Hubs' I can fully see that it's a tough call whether to post it here, as on one hand it's still very much to do with wheel bearings and as such is completely 'on-topic'. However, it could also be said that any subsequent replies would then be about this related but nonetheless 'new topic' and might be better in a 'new thread', perhaps titled 'Full Width Hubs Assembly Procedure' in the 'General Greeves Chat' subforum?...After all, this thread is entitled 'Scottish Wheel Bearings' and is in the 'Parts Sourcing' subforum. It could of course be argued that Scottish models could be (and are!) fitted with full width hubs!!! On balance I think we should let it be and see where any responses take us with it. We can always move it if need be and set up a dedicated new thread if it develops.

Yes, I suppose it could be said that I'm splitting hairs here...However, I try to have an overview of the whole board and as such it's important that any and all useful info like this can be accessed easily. The only way we have is by giving threads clear titles and keeping them on topic as best we can, otherwise we have to use the forum editing tools, moving/merging posts, to keep things on track. As I've said before, a bit of 'meandering' is inevitable (and often useful!), but we do need to try and keep things under the right headings wherever we can. Don't forget that it's ok to start a new thread when/if in doubt!

I wouldn't want anyone to think that I'm being 'draconian' about this in any way-heaven forbid! It's merely a matter of me doing my best to keep things as organised as possible to make things easy for future reference.

Sorry for the ramble (again!) but I do want everyone to be completely clear that I'm not 'having a go'! However, dealing with the spammer problem (would you believe well over 2000 so far...) is a time consuming issue, so any help from forum members in this regard is always really appreciated as it gives us moderators less to do! The whole thing comes down to a judgement call from post to post doesn't it, and I'm sure everyone is doing their best.

Hope this helps clarify where I'm coming from on this.

Brian.

[John Wakefield]

Full Width Hubs

Good point Gudgeon, I must admit I have replaced bearings in my EC with full width hubs but have just re assembled with the spacers that came out. This kind of assembly is common on many modern hubs including my Yamaha T80 Townmate. When new the spacer between the bearings would be the correct length so no shims needed, but I suppose over the years it could become compressed, or maybe replaced with the wrong spacer, therefore requiring shims to stop pre loading the bearings. The best way is to measure the distance between the bearing housings & ensure the spacer is say 10 thou longer. Difficult to do if you do not have precision measurning equipment such as vernier calipers. On the question of sealed bearings I use bearings sealed one side (or remove inner seal) as this enables grease to be packed between the bearings in the hub. Obviously the outer seals prevent ingress of dirt & water. If totally sealed bearings are used the grease tends to dry out after a while or condensation forms which rusts the bearing.
UPDATE
I have now seen a dimensioned drawing of a sectioned FWH and the bearing spacer is 51mm long but at each end between the bearings & the hub casting there are two 1/16" thick Grease Throwers (dished washers). These must be in place to ensure the correct clearance for the bearings. Note the Grease thrower centre hole is larger than the spacer diameter, so they do not increase the 51mm length of spacer, but they do space the bearing 1/16" out from hub recess. The only shims are between the felt seals & bearings the size being 42 x 26 x 0.025mm. These do not effect bearing clearances & mearly act as grease retainers.

[Colin Sparrow]

Resuscitating this useful thread just to prove I did actually try searching before posting...

Now I've finished the Scott (for now ), I've made a start on sorting out the TFS. The wheels are going for rebuilding with new rims, and I was thinking of replacing the full-width hub bearings with sealed ones, thus making the felt seals redundant.

Does anyone know what bearings I need and where I might source them?

Any other thoughts on this topic welcomed...

[John Wakefield]

Resuscitating this useful thread just to prove I did actually try searching before posting...

Now I've finished the Scott (for now ), I've made a start on sorting out the TFS. The wheels are going for rebuilding with new rims, and I was thinking of replacing the full-width hub bearings with sealed ones, thus making the felt seals redundant.

Does anyone know what bearings I need and where I might source them?

Any other thoughts on this topic welcomed...

Not sure what the number is, but the number will be on the old bearing, the sealed version will have a suffix 2RS which would indicate double seal. As for stockist just look on line for a local bearing stockist, just tell them you want a sealed version. This stockist near you would have them https://www.eabs.co.uk/

[tony]

Quality Bearings on line

I ordered 2 sets from https://www.qualitybearingsonline.com


2 x 6004-2RS - SKF £7.66
2 x 6302-2RS-SKF £8.22