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Jean Sutton's Tri-Greeves (Triumph Greeves Trailbike.)

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  • Jean Sutton's Tri-Greeves (Triumph Greeves Trailbike.)

    Here's another interesting Triumph Greeves, this time from an article by Mark Williams in the very first issue of 'Bike' magazine, way back in the summer of 1971.

    The article is about trail riding and gives a wide ranging overview of the 'state of play' at that time and the important role played by the TRF (Trail Riders Fellowship; http://www.trf.org.uk/) in mapping, maintaining and retaining access to green lanes in the UK. Formed in 1970, back then the organisation was still very much in it's infancy and the article was about encouraging and raising awareness of the pastime, the organisation itself and the issues involved, something that MW has continued to do to this day, until fairly recently in the pages of 'TBM' (Trail Bike magazine; http://www.trailbikemag.com/) with his 'Right To Ride' peices.

    The article goes on to discuss the various types of machine suitable for trailriding and greenlaning in the UK, and amongst them is this really nice Triumph Greeves. It was built by Dick Sutton, at the time the TRF 'Runs Captain', specially for his wife Jean. Apparently he built a number of excellent Triumph engined 'specials', with either 500 or 650cc units.

    His favoured approach was to take a stock Trophy or Tiger 100 engine, then install low-lift cams, softer valve springs, low compression pistons and other parts, all with a mind to improve low-end tractability. The completed engine was then fitted to a frame with suitable geometery 'tweaks' to provide excellent trail handling coupled with a comfortable road riding stance. Forks were usually Norton (his own bike apparently used Commando components) and a lightened AMC front hub, which in his view gave the correct 'feel' for nadgery off road use as well as adequate braking power for the tarmac. MW went on to praise the all-round professional finish of Dick Sutton's 'specials', with their neatly housed electrics and details, including a combined alloy numberplate heat sink, putting them on a par with Eric Cheney's ISDT Triumph works based machines-high praise indeed!

    As always, if anyone can provide any more information on this brilliant machine or it's builder (especially if it's still around...!), please do so as it'd be great to hear more. Note the provision for carrying spare plugs and tools in the nearside beam of the frame, the AMC front hub and the overall neatness of the construction.

    Brian.

    (With thanks to Mark Williams for the article, and for starting 'Bike' magazine, amongst so many others, in the first place! His early writings convinced a young 'apprentice' that off road riding was something that needed to be done!)
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Brian Thompson; 24/09/2010, 10:36 AM. Reason: Pic added.

  • #2
    Mark Williams/Dick Sutton

    Mark Williams he's another blast from the passed, a real flamboyant character. Better skills as a writer than a rider. Used to organise a Bike team in enduro events in the 1970's, I rode in his team in the Welsh Two Days & Beacons Enduro circa 1973. Mark failed to make the first morning let alone day. I understand he got mixed up with drugs a few years later & spent a bit of time at 'Her Majesty's' pleasure' As you say Brian he has gone back to writing this time in Trail Bike mag (& posssibly the odd article in other publications. He is a mate of Frank Westworth, editor of Real Classic.
    As for Dick Sutton, he was a well known trail bike builder & rider, & as you say the Greeves Triumph was built for his wife Jean who had an artifical leg. They ran a B&B in Wales & did trail riding weekends with Dick acting as guide. Jean died some years ago, & I think maybe Dick has since died. He would be in his 80's now. Dick also used to act as a travelling marshall at the Welsh Two Days, after being an active comp rider in earlier years.
    Brian have you a copy of Bike issue No 9 (March/April 1973) if so have a look on page 45 you may recognise someone!!
    I have added the pics taken in the 1972 Welsh 2 Day Trial showing to the left Peter Furlong, 175 Pathfinder Enduro & to right myself on a 250 Bultaco Sherpa. We both finished on Bronze
    The Enduro version of the Pathfinder seems vary rare, are there any within the club? I believe they had a less sharp steering head angle, larger seat & lights. Not just a trials model with lights.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by John Wakefield; 21/09/2010, 10:09 AM. Reason: Pathfinder Enduro enquiry added

    Comment


    • #3
      DS/MW, and the Triumph Greeves Trailbike.

      Thanks for the info John. I felt sure you'd be able to add something on this from previous conversations we've had.

      I was aware of MW's connection to FW, as well as him (ahem!) 'doing a bit of bird', but prefer to think of his many contributions to motorcycle journalism over the years, of which there have been many. In my view 'Bike' was a breath of fresh air for a younger generation 'coming up', and let's be honest, prior to the advent of the 'new wave' of motorcycle publications, every test you read in the 'old press' made every bike sound like a paragon of virtue with zero faults (!), something that no doubt had a lot to do with keeping both the manufacturers and advertisers 'on side', but did little to advise the 'man in the street' when the time came to part with the 'hard earned'! Mind you, in some publications it seems to be swinging back the other way these days...As far as riding skills go, I always felt MW was quite self effacing in the stuff I read, especially recently in 'TBM', or that test he did a year or two back in 'RC' of the 'trials' Enfield...the pipe he had in his mouth in some of the riding shots was very funny I thought! As you say John, one of the characters eh!

      As far as that issue of 'Bike' goes, sadly I don't have that particular issue. Funnily enough, a couple of old mates of mine appeared on the front cover of an early issue, arm in arm and 'well the worse for wear' as they were photographed staggering around at a National Chopper Club bash!!! It's such a funny pic, and a great memory of my early motorcycling years. It would be interesting to see that pic of you John, that you mentioned. Why don't you try taking a pic of it with your digital camera and then you could post it. Once it's uploaded onto your computer, you should be able to fiddle with it if you find the appropriate icon on your 'pictures' tool bar-it will say something like 'fix' or 'adjust', and it should enable you to crop it and tweak the contast/brightness/sharpness etc. Alternatively, if you email a copy of the pic to me I would be happy to have a go at it for you if you'd like?

      Getting back to the main topic and coming back to that splendid Triumph Greeves built by Dick Sutton, I wonder if it is still around...? Does anyone know of it's whereabouts? It'd be great to think it's still out there somewhere being used and enjoyed by someone!

      Brian.
      Last edited by Brian Thompson; 19/09/2010, 01:56 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Jean Sutton's Tri-Greeves



        Dick built this bike for Jean and won the MCN Special of the Year award.

        Comment


        • #5
          Jean rode it well despite being handicapped with an artificial leg. Lovely couple my wife & I spent a happy Easter trail riding with them in 1981 on the XT (two up) over trails organised by Dick.

          Comment


          • #6
            Mark Williams.

            Sorry to be negative, but I never liked MW as a motorcycle journalist. His writing style was obviously affected by his Drug use, he lapsed into some strange, self invented mid-atlantic drawl to describe the details, actions & effects of riding bikes. He seemed preoccupied with 650 Triumph twins and high speed, often making ludicrous statements to the unknowing about the realities of British Motorcycles. I remember one such being the achievable speeds of a Matchless 650 CSR. If MW was to be believed, once out of 2nd gear, you needed take off clearance from Gatwick Airport the bike could go so fast ! He later became a big HD fan. The magazine he started 'Bike' (or BOOB as it was universally referred to around my neck of the woods), seemed to be read by those who had just missed out on the British Bike era, (i.e. born after 1960), and whose dreams were based upon misrepresented facts and myths. It was, perhaps, the 'Hippie' version of motorcycling journalism.

            By contrast, the early 'pocket sized' CBG's of Frank Westworth & Uncle Jim, with Steve Myatt and others, were sensible and approached the world from the knowing, if impecunious level of 'normal' motorcyclists. Bob Currie followed this line too in the early 80's when the Classic Motorcycle appeared. Inform, answer questions, and give practical help. That's what made a good 'bike magazine. Much of the ideas from then still exist in those Magazines. Club Guides, Price Guides, Good Classified sections. Services Guides. Technical experts explaining matters and archive reports. "Bike" was never thus, just daydreams and wierd ideas. The link between Drugs and Motorcycling was pushed by the likes of MW into some sort of folklore. Maybe it was the times, the 70's saw the rise of the Hells Angel type Biker Gangs. Maybe that's what they wanted, but to a lot of us in the Trade, and confirmed motorcyclists, we got all our enjoyment out of owning & riding our bikes.

            Nothing to do with Tri Greeves, but a contemporary view perhaps.

            Comment


            • #7
              I was a close associate with both Dick and Jean as well as Mark Williams and can tell a few stories from both camps. Dick's own bike was, by his own words, a back door Cheney, with a frame built on Cheney's jigs without Eric's knowledge.
              He also told me that to get the motor low enough in Jean's bike, some heating and bending of the top tube was required. I'm not sure about Jean riding this bike after her accident due to the gear change. Dick bought a Honda SL125 (TNK reg) for her, but it was a bit short of power after the twin.
              I rode with and photographed Mark a fair number of times, including the infamous off over the cattlegrid incident that ended up with him being trained home from Wales, but leaving his bike for me and the rest of the gang to fix and ride.

              Comment


              • #8
                PS....

                Hi Brian, nothing against MW, just didn't like his style that's all. I found his "Running out of Road" series a bit much. However my late brother (3 years my junior), was a fan.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Peter, you are not alone, nor was everyone back in the 70's! The point of BIKE magazine was that it appealed to the young who were fed up with the biased reporting that seemed to be the norm. As Brian Thomson explained, the existing press did little to criticize the home products or their makers John Ebbrell explained to me that there was a code built in so those in the know could read the truth. Phrases like "cobby little runner" probably meant it handled badly!
                  JE actually wrote a number of articles for BIKE, under a nom-de-plume.
                  I copped a load of stick once by allowing Mark to send out, at their expense, the TRF Bulletin of which I was Editor. Mark packed the envelopes with a BIKE fun book which upset a number of our senior members, including Ralph Venables.
                  Back to the thread....I believe Dick sold the Tri-Greeves to Tim Stevens, but I have no concrete evidence of that. This pic taken in Poland at the 67 ISDT.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    BIKE Magazine & Reporting.

                    Hi Brian. Point taken and agreed with. I quite liked OGRI, as he was/is pretty similar to myself, (although I don't have a winged helmet !), but his views, 'Malcolm' and the (then) 16er Moped generation, (my Garelli Tiger Cross does 100mph, Nah, My Puch Grand Prix does 120mph, My Fizzy burns off Bonnevilles!) were common to my lot's experiences here in B'ham.
                    I knew, through working in the MC Trade, several Worthies in the 'Classic' MC world. I worked not too far from Bob Currie's office and talked about TCMC when it started. He agreed that the balance between the Factory and the Press Tester was "skewed", this is now bearing fruit as many of those who never had British Bikes 'back then' are paying a fortune out on real rubbish, just because of it's Tank Badge. It is precisely because of these misconceptions that the knowledge of experienced people like Chris Goodfellow, etc., is invaluable to the GRA, and similar amongst other Clubs.

                    I found out the hard way, but, back then, your £5 two-stoke cost peanuts to fix and, if it didn't work too well, then you accepted it. (Spare plug at the ready!). Now, with people paying 2 - 3 £k for basic commuters, and over 10£k for exotica, then comparing them against 21st C electronic plastic rockets, an element of disappointment creeps in.

                    Like the bloke who came into the 'Shop one day. He'd paid over 10£k for a total rebuild of his "500cc TT type Norton" that wouldn't do 75mph. When it arrived, it was a 500cc Norton alright. A 16H sidevalve !

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Jeans Suttons Greeves

                      Originally posted by Brian Thompson View Post
                      Here's another interesting Triumph Greeves, this time from an article by Mark Williams in the very first issue of 'Bike' magazine, way back in the summer of 1971.

                      The article is about trail riding and gives a wide ranging overview of the 'state of play' at that time and the important role played by the TRF (Trail Riders Fellowship; http://www.trf.org.uk/) in mapping, maintaining and retaining access to green lanes in the UK. Formed in 1970, back then the organisation was still very much in it's infancy and the article was about encouraging and raising awareness of the pastime, the organisation itself and the issues involved, something that MW has continued to do to this day, until fairly recently in the pages of 'TBM' (Trail Bike magazine; http://www.trailbikemag.com/) with his 'Right To Ride' peices.

                      The article goes on to discuss the various types of machine suitable for trailriding and greenlaning in the UK, and amongst them is this really nice Triumph Greeves. It was built by Dick Sutton, at the time the TRF 'Runs Captain', specially for his wife Jean. Apparently he built a number of excellent Triumph engined 'specials', with either 500 or 650cc units.

                      His favoured approach was to take a stock Trophy or Tiger 100 engine, then install low-lift cams, softer valve springs, low compression pistons and other parts, all with a mind to improve low-end tractability. The completed engine was then fitted to a frame with suitable geometery 'tweaks' to provide excellent trail handling coupled with a comfortable road riding stance. Forks were usually Norton (his own bike apparently used Commando components) and a lightened AMC front hub, which in his view gave the correct 'feel' for nadgery off road use as well as adequate braking power for the tarmac. MW went on to praise the all-round professional finish of Dick Sutton's 'specials', with their neatly housed electrics and details, including a combined alloy numberplate heat sink, putting them on a par with Eric Cheney's ISDT Triumph works based machines-high praise indeed!

                      As always, if anyone can provide any more information on this brilliant machine or it's builder (especially if it's still around...!), please do so as it'd be great to hear more. Note the provision for carrying spare plugs and tools in the nearside beam of the frame, the AMC front hub and the overall neatness of the construction.

                      Brian.

                      (With thanks to Mark Williams for the article, and for starting 'Bike' magazine, amongst so many others, in the first place! His early writings convinced a young 'apprentice' that off road riding was something that needed to be done!)
                      Jean's bike carried two registration numbers, PAR 3H (as in pic) & also JRO 3C.
                      A recent search on Carweb has revealed the following frame/engine numbers for the two TRIUMPH bikes currently carrying these marks
                      PAR 3H both frame & engine numbers PD 33655/TR6 - clearly a 1970 650 Triumph TR6 - looks like the number has been transffered to another bike.
                      JRO 3C engine T100 SDS2 frame H2668 - this looks nearer to be Jeans 1965 bike assuming Dick Sutton may have registered it as a Triumph rather than Greeves & did not change the frame number, which I assume is Triumph.
                      This would have been in pre DVLA days when the bike was registered with Hertfordshire C.C. frame numbers were never checked at MoT time.
                      Last edited by John Wakefield; 15/08/2011, 04:17 PM. Reason: Dates of bikes added

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Jean Sutton's Tri Greeves

                        So it looks like JRO 3C is the bike, I wonder if Tim Stevens still has it. Has anyone a contact for him?
                        Its currently on SORN, & last keeper change was 5/12/05
                        The vehicle details from Carweb for JRO 3C are:

                        Full Details

                        Vehicle registration mark (current) JRO3C
                        Vehicle registration mark (original) JRO3C
                        Cherished Transfer marker false
                        Marque description TRIUMPH
                        Model variant description ALL MODELS
                        Fuel type PETROL
                        Fuel Type-abbreviated P
                        Fuel Description 2-STROKE or PETROL
                        Engine capacity 498 cc
                        Body style MOTORCYCLE
                        DVLA Make TRIUMPH
                        Combined Make TRIUMPH
                        Combined VIN H2668
                        Colour BLACK/BROWN
                        Colour (previous) - number of 0
                        Date of first registration 01 January 1984
                        Used before first registration - marker true
                        Date of First Registration in the UK 01 January 1984
                        VIN Number marker false
                        VIN Number (DVLA) H2668
                        Engine number T100SDS2
                        Number of previous keepers 5
                        Start date of current keeper 05 December 2005
                        Date of previous keeper acquisition 05 April 2004
                        Date of previous keeper disposal 05 December 2005
                        Date of third keeper acquisition 10 June 2003
                        Date of third keeper disposal 05 April 2004
                        Country of Manufacture UNITED KINGDOM
                        Model Introduction date to UK 01 January 2003
                        Issue date of latest V5 12 December 2005
                        Scrapping marker 0
                        Export marker 0
                        Imported from outside EU false
                        Imported from Northern Ireland false
                        Scrapped removed - marker false
                        CO2 0
                        Wheel plan A
                        Wheelplan 2-WHEEL
                        Gross weight 0 kg
                        Maximum Technically Permissable Mass 0 kg
                        Power/Weight Ratio (Motorcycles only) 0
                        Maximum Nett Power 0
                        Sound level - drive by 0
                        Sound level - engine speed 0
                        Sound level - stationary 0
                        Seating capacity - including driver 0
                        Mass in service 0 kg
                        Load Length- Vans 0 mm
                        Roof height- Vans 0 mm
                        Front steer-HGV 0
                        Technically Permissable Max towable mass of trailer- Braked 0 kg
                        Technically Permissable Max towable mass of trailer- Unbraked 0 kg
                        Bus seating capacity 0
                        DVLA Make code T7
                        DVLA Model code 000
                        MVRIS Make Code T7
                        MVRIS Model Code 1AA
                        Validation Code 444
                        Vehicle Category Code TA
                        Vehicle Category Description 2/3 Wheelers (Motorcycles & Scooters)
                        VRR_VehicleID 28199971
                        Last edited by John Wakefield; 15/08/2011, 05:05 PM. Reason: Carweb details added

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I understand Dick is still alive, but not in the best of health. He is still in Dolau but sometimes attends the West Middlesex Amateur MC reunion meetings.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Update on JRO 3C

                            Just received an update on Jean Suttons Tri Greeves JRO 3C from Tim Stevens. In fact it was later re registered as GAR 7K, and as Brian Catt stated, passed to Tim (as GAR 7K) who in turn sold it to Andy Thomas of Gaydon around 1978. Tim thinks Andy may still have it.
                            GAR 7K is indeed registered as a Tri Greeves but has been unlicenced since 1979 so does not look to have been used since Andy Thomas acquired it. Now registered with 490cc engine.
                            Presumably JRO 3C is now on a Triumph.

                            DVLA listing
                            The vehicle details for GAR 7K are:
                            Date of Liability 01 08 1979
                            Date of First Registration 16 06 1972
                            Year of Manufacture Not Available
                            Cylinder Capacity (cc) 490cc
                            CO₂ Emissions Not Available
                            Fuel Type PETROL
                            Export Marker N
                            Vehicle Status Unlicensed
                            Vehicle Colour NOT STATED
                            Vehicle Type Approval Not Available
                            Last edited by John Wakefield; 27/04/2022, 11:11 PM. Reason: ref to 490 cc engine added

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by John Wakefield View Post
                              Just received an update on Jean Suttons Tri Greeves JRO 3C from Tim Stevens. In fact it was later re registered as GAR 7K, and as Brian Catt stated, passed to Tim (as GAR 7K) who in turn sold it to Andy Thomas of Gaydon around 1978. Tim thinks Andy may still have it.
                              GAR 7K is indeed registered as a Tri Greeves but has been unlicenced since 1979 so does not look to have been used since Andy Thomas acquired it.
                              Presumably JRO 3C is now on a Triumph.

                              DVLA listing
                              The vehicle details for GAR 7K are:
                              Date of Liability 01 08 1979
                              Date of First Registration 16 06 1972
                              Year of Manufacture Not Available
                              Cylinder Capacity (cc) 490cc
                              CO₂ Emissions Not Available
                              Fuel Type PETROL
                              Export Marker N
                              Vehicle Status Unlicensed
                              Vehicle Colour NOT STATED
                              Vehicle Type Approval Not Available
                              I have made contact with Andy Thomas & yes he still has the bike, & it is for sale. I am listing it for him in the For Sale section.

                              Comment

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