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Is hand painting frame of Hawkstone ever a good idea?

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  • #16
    My poor old Enfield trials bike has had the Tekaloid on it for about 25 years now and was suitably abused again yesterday at the Talmag trial!

    The only point I would make is be careful with primer. I painted a frame last year as a quick job and used the aerosol primer available at Kempton Park (good to see you there on Sat John). After a year, the Tekaloid is lifting off. I also recently painted an Anglian frame with another make of similar paint, again on top of the same primer and if anything is taped to the frame and then pulled off, the paint comes with it.

    My long-lasting Enfield finish was applied on Tekaloid oil-based elastic primer followed by the correct undercoat followed by top coat and where it has not worn away or chipped, it is as good as new. I may try an experiment with Kempton primer and then undercoat/top coat and see if it will stay on.

    My Moorland Blue was matched by Avenue Coatings from the inside of a NOS toolbox but by now, I think just about any dark blue can be argued as Moorland Blue!

    Rob

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    • #17
      Re: Blacksilver's confusion - the 'extra dark blue' is the name of the undercoat, the top coat was matched as stated. Hope this clears it up! Rob

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      • #18
        Hand painting

        I've been using Hammerite on my frames for year's now and providing you follow their instruction's regarding drying/curing times before recoating etc to the letter, have alway's been pleased with the end result..... I personally would give powder coating a wide berth, as I have seen first hand and heard of other instances where frames etc have rotted away within the coating and gone unnoticed till it's too late... The speculation being that they've rotted from the inside due to the exterior coat not allowing the metal to "Breath" ???????

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        • #19
          The problems that I have seen with powder coating are normally caused by bad preparation. Any rust or condensation is trapped within the coating which looks wonderful from the outside, but can cover a badly rusting frame, causing possible failure. At least with paint, you will see any problems well before they become major.

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          • #20
            Hey all!

            NOTE: Not a professional at all!

            We had the MCS done with the PGA paint...hope thats right, came highly recommended...bought the paint and etc and took to a professional to have him do it with spray gun. Turned out okay...but touch ups a nightmare..have to mix it ect.

            I fought the "rattle can" paint job on the Wessex from start to finish! I wanted the original (what was found under the tank) hammertone gray finish. Unfortunately no one in my neck of the woods did it. When to PGA and the suggested a self etching primer and a very high end clear top coat. I blasted the frame to bare metal where I could...not sure how they did they hammertone in the day...BUT durable, even against glass bead.
            ANYWAY...I am amazed to this day. Used the hammertone...shoot, middle of the road price spray can....you can take a sharp hunting knife to this paint...won't phase it. I am convinced what I have been told time and time again really is true. PREP...PREP and more PREP...use a good primer and top coat and you can not imagine the durability! I used rustoleum...that's what it was....I have taken her out in the woods alot and through creeks etc...no rust or knicks...

            Just my story and experience...will do the same for future Greeves!

            Good luck!
            Tammy

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            • #21
              Right - that bl**dy hammer finish silver!

              Hundreds of years ago, I owned a Scottish and wanted to make it look like an Anglian(??!!). So, off I went down to the local Greeves dealer, Beamish Motors, and came back with a can of the genuine paint. Stripped the bike, etc. and on went the paint.

              Did it ever dry - no! I rode around gradually collecting dust and dirt and invented 'moorland brown'! Eventually, I had to scrape the lot off and repaint it with Valspar green paint and make it look like a Challenger!

              I can only assume it was a stoving enamel and not air drying! Did they bake it on in the factory or just recycle the heat generated by the workers??!! That would explain why it so hard to remove now!

              Rob

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              • #22
                Everything painted at the factory was stove enameled and phosphated against rust before being painted .

                If you have tried to remove any paint on a Greeves frame , you'll know how tough it is .

                Chris

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                • #23
                  Hand painting

                  Rob,
                  After the prep they were put through a low bake stoving process. The trundled through something like the ghost ride and by the time they reappeared through the curtains they were dry.

                  Druid

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                  • #24
                    I can only assume it was a stoving enamel and not air drying! Did they bake it on in the factory or just recycle the heat generated by the workers??!! That would explain why it so hard to remove now!

                    Rob[/QUOTE]


                    Hey Rob...LOL and not at you, but with you!

                    I can tell you this...it was several different layers of different colors. The primer appeared to be a slight mint green...a very cool look indeed.
                    Rumor has it, and I like this particular rumor...that it was an "accident". That a paint was mixed with too much thinner or something of the sort....bang, next coolist thing going!

                    I do like the hammer finish look...personally, I liked a heavier hammer finish than Dave did....one thing we learned quite on accident....you get a better hammertone when the paint and temp is a little bit colder than what the can calls for....if you can stand the extra drying time of course!

                    I love your story...never know...maybe a cult following someday for "Moreland brown dirt tone"

                    Take care,
                    Tammy

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                    • #25
                      Well done the Works Team! After all this time, more of the dark secrets of Thundersley revealed!

                      No wonder it didn't dry! ....and Greeves were selling it as touch-up paint!



                      Obviously a little factory joke - well here's one they caught!

                      Can't think why Moorland Brown didn't catch on, it had real texture!

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                      • #26
                        Reply to Rob.

                        Rob.
                        I dare not look as to how long it has taken me to complete this, but I'm at the position where I'm actually starting to bolt bits of the 20DC back together....
                        Having sprayed the MDS (as in leading link) with cellulose and painted the 20DC with Tractol coach paint I would definitely use coach paint if I had to do another re paint.
                        It definitely appeals to the purist in me and providing you have a mild dose of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder in terms of preparation the results are much better and I have both bikes side by side. Quite frankly I didn't believe you when I started out on this journey, but it's proved an interesting learning experience.
                        "Top Ten" Lessons for other people.
                        1) If you are going to do this don't skimp, one tin each of primer, undercoat and top coat did everything with paint in each tin to spare (Smith and Allen being "Up North" are cheaper.....)
                        2) Buy two of the best brushes you can afford and save one for the final coats.
                        3) The reason I advise primer undercoat and topcoat is that each gets progresively harder to get right and by the time you get to topcoat you are well practiced.
                        4) There is a definte knack....the key seems to be visualising what bit you are going to paint before you actually attempt it. I eventually focussed on moving from weld to weld in a "section". Basically starting at a weld, keeping a wet edge and moving along until I reached the next weld then "laying off" the "section" between the welds to eliminate brushmarks. I used welds to join sections together as the change points are invisible.
                        5) The longer the "section" or distance between welds the higher the risk of a screw up. Basically the knack is to finish a "section" quick enough so you can go back to the beginning of the section while its still wet to enable successful "laying off" along the full section. The biggest screw up I got was where I finished a long section up a fork leg and accidently touched it with my elbow when I was doing the next section down the opposite leg.
                        6) A screw up usually involves the above (5) or being too slow covering a "section" such that laying off the section leads to dragging of non fluid paint at the beginning of the section. This can be recovered if you are VERY quick by putting LOTS of paint back on the section to wet the surface out again and re-laying off.
                        7) The worst case screw up I had was the result of 6) failing (fork legs). Here I cooked the part in a photographic negative dryer at 80C for a day and spent another half day rubbing back down to a smooth starting position again. The moral is Dont Get into the Position Where You Have To Do This.
                        8) The other knack is gauging the right amount of paint to lay down to avoid runs.....runs and drips take an absolute age to dry and if they happen the best thing is to cut them right back with a single sided razor blade, let them dry out and rub them down.
                        9) Stiff galvanised wire from hardware stores is a godsend, use it to form hanging hooks for the very many painted parts our Greeves are made from.
                        10) Ban the wife / cat / dog / from the garage when you have parts in process or drying and paint on a warm wet day when dust is at a minimum.

                        Footnote - I was lucky, the "best" part of the bike was the tank which I left in the original "two pack" petrol resistant paint. I dont think coach paint is good for tanks as the risk is too high that a petrol spill will screw it up.

                        I personally found brush painting much cleaner and more therapeutic than spraying. I had screw ups, as stated above, but recovered these. And quite frankly what I have now is coming together very nicely. Of course it could be better, but it's way way beyond what I expected and some of the best parts (frame and forks) look like a professional "wet look" 2 pack sprayed paint job.

                        Its also been a lovely learning process. I had a fabulous conversation with a gentleman who paints steam trains for a living and can now truely understand the skills involved in this "lost art".

                        If you want to get involved in your motorcycle, learn a new craft and develop a novel skill then have a go. If you dont want to learn about your bike or want quick /fast / cheap then ship the lot to a powdercoater. If you want absolute concourse just pay up and go the professional spray route.

                        Buy good paint, good bushes and have fun.
                        P.S Black, I think - would be a doddle to get right on a frame compared to our Moorland Blue.

                        John.

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                        • #27
                          Well done John, another convert to the school of sensibility! My Enfield trials bike was painted in 1988 and the finish still looks like glass. I used the same tins of paint, with a bit of stirring and filtering, to paint another one a couple of years ago.

                          I used Tractol to paint my lathe and I did find it a bit quick drying and you had to move a bit with the brush. The old Tekaloid was far more forgiving. I have just painted my Anglian with a locally sourced brushing enamel. It was only intended as a rush job and I used autojumble aerosol primer on the frame first. Big mistake, the enamel has not adhered at all well. I have found the same thing with my latest Enfield using the Tekaloid. Best thing is to use primer/surfacer, undercoat and top coat from the same manufacturer. I also found the top coat took a long time to dry and needed a bit of warmth. Judging by the way, I've managed to scrape the paint off it by hitting trees, the ground and other hard objects, I'm glad I didn't waste too much time and money on it!

                          Having said that, it still looks presentable and was on the GRA stand at Stafford.

                          I agree with you about petrol tanks. Mine are alloy so I have not painted them.

                          Also agree about using garden wire to hang parts up. I once made the mistake of using nylon rope and all the dust and dirt came out all over the paint.

                          A useful acquisition was an office coat rack that was being thown out. This was the type about 4 feet long with integral hangers. Remove hangers and it becomes a handy stand-alone frame to hang parts on. Best of all, it dismantles with a few allen screws for storage.

                          Perhaps you could knock up an article for Leading Link based on your experiences and we may get a few more converts!

                          Rob

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                          • #28
                            Update

                            Rob - I just checked the tin of topcoat.
                            It was Tekaloid.
                            Details

                            Topcoat Tekaloid 318 clear base, RAL5001 (a light blue version of Moorland blue that I think looks great on a 20DC).
                            Transpeed Undercoat (Blue)
                            Tractol 816 light grey primer

                            I bought the topcoat and undercoat from Avenue Paints (who mixed both of them) but bought the primer from Smith and Allen when I discovered they were cheaper.

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                            • #29
                              Ral 5001.

                              Hi John,

                              Great post(s), and many thanks for sharing your tips and experiences.

                              I had a quick look at the RAL colour chart (here's a direct link to it;http://www.llewellyn-ryland.co.uk/ralcolours.html) that I posted a link to in this section previously, and was able to 'capture' that specific tile showing the 5001 colour to attach here. It won't 'open' like a usual attachment though, I think because it is so small, but at least it attached to the post ok!

                              Obviously it's one thing looking at it on a screen and often quite another once you get it on the metal, but I thought it might give an idea. Personally I like it, a very nice shade of Moorland Blue indeed....whatever that is!

                              All the best,

                              Brian.

                              PS Just picked up your PM John, reply on the way.
                              Attached Files
                              Last edited by Brian Thompson; 11/06/2012, 10:38 AM. Reason: Image attached.

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                              • #30
                                Ral 5001 Tekaloid Paint.

                                Just found this on Ebay; ITEM No 250981239340 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2509812393...340%26_rdc%3D1) Gives you colour chart and they can also make up Aerosols.
                                Last edited by Brian Thompson; 11/07/2012, 07:19 AM. Reason: Direct link added and title added to for clarity.

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