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  • road legal confusion

    Evening gents,

    I'm now the proud owner of a 1961 TDS Scottish recently purchased from a fellow club member. My intention is to use it for both trials and green lane-ing so getting it road legal is a priority. I know this issue keeps cropping up, but I'm thoroughly confused about what I need to do. DVLA website is no use at all, so I nipped down to my local MOT test centre for a chat.
    I was told an electric horn is required ( apparently small battery operated ones that can be fitted to bicycles are fine) but a bulb horn is no longer acceptable I find this hard to believe when a bulb horn was likely to be fitted originally.
    A speedo isn't required - I thought that was an absolute necessity?
    Tyres (even if marked 'not for road use' ) are fine as long as the tread block is larger than the gap between the blocks.
    I believe that as of April next year, changes in policy mean an MOT won't be needed for the bike, but....

    Also, regarding tax exemption, do I need to inform DVLA ? there seems to be no facility to do his on their website.

    Finally, if anyone in the Yorkshire / Derbyshire area can recommend good clubs or trials I'd be grateful


    Paul

  • #2
    As far as the hooter is concerned. yes I think it's correct that you need a steady note from an electric horn. Should it fall off soon after the test, then a bulb horn should be fitted for just this emergency!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Soggy Welly View Post
      Evening gents,
      Also, regarding tax exemption, do I need to inform DVLA ? there seems to be no facility to do his on their website. A speedo isn't required - I thought that was an absolute necessity?
      Paul
      Not sure why you need to inform DVLA as the bike already qualifys for 'Historic' free tax. Unless its been off the road for a long time and is still taxed as a 'Bicycle' In which case as I understand it you need to declare the change of taxation class when its next taxed. I think you have to pay the fee then the DVLA will refund it.
      With regards to horn it clearly states in the Motorcycle MoT testers manual http://www.motuk.com/bike/manual.asp that a motorcycle first used before 1/8/73 can be fitted with a bulb horn
      On a motor bicycle without a battery or an insufficiently charged battery which is fitted with an electrically operated horn, it will be necessary to run the engine.
      An audible warning device is usually an electrical horn. A horn is defined as an instrument, not being a bell, gong or siren, capable of giving audible and sufficient warning of the approach or position of a vehicle.
      A motor bicycle first used before 1 August 1973 may be fitted with a bulb horn.

      Nothing about speedo BUT Dept of Transport Regulations "3.6. Speedometers states Every motorcycle first used on or after 1 April 1984 and capable of more than 25 mph must have a speedometer. A digital cycle speedo will be OK & is the easiest option.
      Last edited by John Wakefield; 09/10/2017, 10:59 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        ask the experts

        Thanks for input chaps. that seems very clear John. I guess I made the cardinal error of assuming a motorcycle mot tester is fully aware of the motorcycle mot testers manual. perhaps I'm being a little unfair - he wouldn't come across these issues every day, but on the other hand it is his job to know.

        Any thoughts on the tyre issue? I wouldn't expect to do many miles on the road, so leaving on the current trials tyres, which are in excellent nick, would be the easy option.

        the taxation class on the v5 states ' not licensed', and entering the v5 details online produced an error message. I may have to try and talk to a real live human at the dvla to get clarification on this.

        Paul

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Soggy Welly View Post
          Thanks for input chaps. that seems very clear John. I guess I made the cardinal error of assuming a motorcycle mot tester is fully aware of the motorcycle mot testers manual. perhaps I'm being a little unfair - he wouldn't come across these issues every day, but on the other hand it is his job to know.

          Any thoughts on the tyre issue? I wouldn't expect to do many miles on the road, so leaving on the current trials tyres, which are in excellent nick, would be the easy option.

          the taxation class on the v5 states ' not licensed', and entering the v5 details online produced an error message. I may have to try and talk to a real live human at the dvla to get clarification on this.

          Paul
          Trials tyres will be fine (and legal)
          What is the reg number of your bike & I will check it.

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm sure its a bike you have on your database as it has been owned by a long time member for a number of years. reg is MEN 701

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Soggy Welly View Post
              I'm sure its a bike you have on your database as it has been owned by a long time member for a number of years. reg is MEN 701
              As suspected its been off the road prior to free 'Historic' tax. & will still be licenced as a 'Bicycle' So you need to fill in a Change of Taxation Class in section 7 to Historic and send it to the DVLA at Swansea. As I said before I think you will have to pay (currently £41) and then they will refund. But as you say maybe a call to them to see if you need to send any money. It may be able to be done at a Post Office that does road tax, worth asking there first as they may be able do do it.
              Nice registration, I did not have it on my list.

              Comment


              • #8
                Paul ,I have just had my 1959 20TC Scottish MOT`d on the frame so I could get an age related reg number .The tyres are Vee Rubber VRM308 ,it also has a bulb horn but no speedo and passed MOT with no problems .I believe if you ride it on the road you need a speedo to make it road legal.
                I also phone the DVLA to get some advice about the forms I needed to fill out and found them very helpful.
                This is a photo of bike as it is when MOT`d
                Simon
                Attached Files

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                • #9
                  Tyres

                  My MOT station is hot on tyres, I have always had to put new ones on if they are not DOT approved. It is a legal requirement, just because a tyre has a lot of tread does not mean it is legal for road use.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by tony View Post
                    My MOT station is hot on tyres, I have always had to put new ones on if they are not DOT approved. It is a legal requirement, just because a tyre has a lot of tread does not mean it is legal for road use.
                    If you use the ACU approved trials tyres by Dunlop or Pirelli you will be OK. Of course condition and age come into it, if they have cracks & cuts they wont pass. If you are going to use it for mainly road use then one of the Universal type tread patterns made by ChenSin may suffice. Do not fit moto cross 'knobbly' tyres.
                    On the subject of MoT test stations its always best to source one that is knowledgeable on old bikes, many of the modern bike shops do not understand old bikes. Anyway after May next year our bikes will be MoT free. so these problems like horn etc wont be an issue anymore.
                    I would be interested to hear how the DVLA/taxation business works out, & if you have to pay up front and then get a refund after its changed to 'Historic'.
                    Simon. Soggy Welly wont need an age related number as his bike is on the DVLA computor with its original number. It just needs the taxation class changing from 'Bicycle' to 'Historic'.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      MoT test/certificate has never been the "be all and end all". It has still been necessary to have a vehicle in roadworthy condition under more general requirements of Road Traffic legislation .............. or has that changed?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Changing taxation class

                        I have asked about the taxation query on another more road bike oriantated forum. This is the answer I got.

                        You can get the V5C changed at the local post office, if you have one, and they will forward it to DVLA. You can do it by sending it to DVLA direct, and if it is already taxed they will send a refund. The last one that I changed had to be taxed first and then changed to Historic before you get a refund, but you lost one months worth of RFL when you did this.
                        Frankly all of the information is available from DVLA and on the .gov website. I would just phone DVLA and ask them. they are very helpful.


                        So best to phone DVLA

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by John Wakefield View Post
                          Nothing about speedo BUT Dept of Transport Regulations "3.6. Speedometers states Every motorcycle first used on or after 1 April 1984 and capable of more than 25 mph must have a speedometer. A digital cycle speedo will be OK & is the easiest option.
                          To clarify, does this mean a pre 1st April 1984 machine can be road legal without a speedometer?

                          Thank you.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ian640 View Post
                            To clarify, does this mean a pre 1st April 1984 machine can be road legal without a speedometer?

                            Thank you.
                            Apparently so, here is the actual directive issued by
                            Vehicle Certification (VCA) Agency
                            No. 1 The Eastgate Office Centre
                            Eastgate Road
                            Bristol
                            BS5 6XX
                            Tel: 0117 9524235
                            Fax: 0117 9524104
                            Email: enquiries@vca.gov.uk

                            3.6. Speedometers
                            Every motorcycle first used on or after 1 April 1984 and capable of more than 25 mph must have a speedometer which reads in both miles per hour and kilometres per hour either simultaneously or separately by the use of a switch. A speedometer which is approved to Community Directives 75/443/EEC as amended by 97/39/EC, 2000/7/EC or to UNECE Regulation No.39 is acceptable.

                            Thing is does the above mean that the speedo must be marked in both MILES & KILOMETERS rather than not having an actual speedo? I seem to recall that only bikes before circa 1930 were exempt from a speedo
                            Last edited by John Wakefield; 10/10/2017, 05:30 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Have just found that Speedometers were made compulsory on 1 January 1937.
                              see https://www.gov.uk/government/public...e-driving-test
                              paragraph 4
                              So the 1984 directive means that from 1/4/84 speedos must be marked in MPH and Kilometers
                              So bottom line is YES you do need a speedo fitted on a Greeves.

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