Project Thumper.

[ADickerson]

You've a good memory Chris, and on good money too by the sound of it! in
'68 I was third year apprentice on about £6 a week, what where you then,
a Banker?. Be good to see you Dave if you can make it to the Exeter Hall in April, bring your bike a long too, I'm sure it will create a lot of interest and who knows you might end up winning a trophy. That would get the season off to a cracking start.

[riflegreen]

Adrian ,

I was at Greeves then , lots of us there still preferred four strokes

Chris

[ADickerson]

Hi Chris, you were at the factory! Well, you my utmost respect then, I think the pennies beginning to drop now. Mr Goodfellow, I presume! Nice to hear from you after all this time, even if you do prefer four strokes. Adrian

[dave higgins]

hi adrian/ chris.
four strokes eh! is there any other?
1968, now if my memory serves me right, i was in 2nd year junior school, pulling in thruppence a week pocket money....... dave.

[riflegreen]

Hi Adrian ,

Should get my user name altered to my proper name . Still like fourstrokes , three to one in the shed at the moment .

Chris

[John Wakefield]

Four strokes in Greeves

I suppose I am really going to sturr up a hornets nest here, but I really cant see the point of putting a C15 engine in a Greeves. After all the two stroke Greeves scramblers ran rings around BSA in the 60's. & these were works bikes & engines. A standard C15 engine produces 15bhp, Brian Stonebridge was tuning 197cc 9E's to 14 BHP in the 1950's and in 1960 the standard Villiers 34A 249cc was producing 19bhp with standard iron barrel. With a Greeves alloy barrel & head fitted the MCS gave 21BHP, & the later MDS 23bhp. In 1962 the Starmaker in standard form gave 25bhp (all fiqures from the C&W Greeves book)
The two strokes are far lighter than the C15 & do not need an oil tank & feed (more weight). I think the BGS NSU Greeves sums up the matter & it never progressed from the development stage. Greeves staying with two strokes for their remaining years

[merlin]

My first bike was a C15 and I agree John,my East Coaster would have left it for dead.

[Colin Sparrow]

I suppose I am really going to sturr up a hornets nest here, but I really cant see the point of putting a C15 engine in a Greeves. After all the two stroke Greeves scramblers ran rings around BSA in the 60's. & these were works bikes & engines. A standard C15 engine produces 15bhp, Brian Stonebridge was tuning 197cc 9E's to 14 BHP in the 1950's and in 1960 the standard Villiers 34A 249cc was producing 19bhp with standard iron barrel. With a Greeves alloy barrel & head fitted the MCS gave 21BHP, & the later MDS 23bhp. In 1962 the Starmaker in standard form gave 25bhp (all fiqures from the C&W Greeves book)
The two strokes are far lighter than the C15 & do not need an oil tank & feed (more weight). I think the BGS NSU Greeves sums up the matter & it never progressed from the development stage. Greeves staying with two strokes for their remaining years

The 1961 250cc European Championship was a close battle throughout the season with Dave Bickers and Jeff Smith swapping the championship lead and Arthur Lampkin dogging their heels. And don't forget, Lampkin scored more points than Bicker's teamate Bryan Sharp. Top class riders all.

The works C15 was completely competitive at that time.

The NSU/Greeves would likely have won the 1959 championship if BGS hadn't been injured in Holland. He was leading the championship at the time. Stonebridge swapped between the NSU and the square barrel Villiers bikes depending on what suited each course. Horses for courses.

[John Wakefield]

Maybe Colin, but BSA never produced a competative 250 for general sale, Greeves did. It was not till much later with the 'trick' titanium 441 & 500 derivatives & John Banks that BSA got back into the lead, the bog standard
B50 was a sales disaster with few being sold to the UK clubman rider. The days of the 4 stroke were numbered then by the Jap two strokes ready to win out of the crate, although Clews soldiered on with the CCM.

[Colin Sparrow]

Maybe Colin, but BSA never produced a competative 250 for general sale, Greeves did. .

Fair comment.

[dave higgins]

Are you lot ganging up on me!
Yes john you are absolutely right about a standard c15 motor performing under par compared to the early greeves/villiers unit, but when you fit it with a triton race piston, head skim & improved porting, spice up the cam, elec ignition, methonol fuel, etc, then i`m glad to say its a different story.
But i think you are missing the point, i`m building this because i want to & because i can.
On the question of weight, then you would be talking only a few pounds & as i have spoken with tri/greeves owners who agree a little bit of extra weight tends to favour the metalastic front end.
There is one other reason that i have gone down this road though & thats the question of regulations, there is very little that you can do tuning wise to a pre 60/65 2 stroke without breaching these rules, if you want to gain any reasonable power increase.
Thanks for your interest & comments marcelle 34, its 95 per cent finished, just waiting for engine parts & other bits, but not long now. dave

[John Wakefield]

Are you lot ganging up on me!
Yes john you are absolutely right about a standard c15 motor performing under par compared to the early greeves/villiers unit, but when you fit it with a triton race piston, head skim & improved porting, spice up the cam, elec ignition, methonol fuel, etc, then i`m glad to say its a different story.
But i think you are missing the point, i`m building this because i want to & because i can.
On the question of weight, then you would be talking only a few pounds & as i have spoken with tri/greeves owners who agree a little bit of extra weight tends to favour the metalastic front end.
There is one other reason that i have gone down this road though & thats the question of regulations, there is very little that you can do tuning wise to a pre 60/65 2 stroke without breaching these rules, if you want to gain any dave

Sorry Dave but I thought the whole idea of the pre 65 scrambles series was to keep expenses low & race bikes as they would have been in their hay day. The winning is then down to the skill of the rider rather than his engineering ability & deep pockets.
This subject has been aired on here before with regards to trials where we are seeing trick machines that perform like modern bikes & cost telephone number to buy.

[dave higgins]

Who said anything about keeping expenses low, do you know how much a decent pre 65 bike costs, you want to attend an average meeting & view the hard ware on show, then go back price it up.
There is no cheap racing anymore & any one that thinks todays pre 65 replicates yesteryear is out of touch.
I don`t agree with it but that is how it is, you have to spend reasonable money just to get half a chance.
Most riders i know use modern technology in there motors , if not for power increase, then for reliabilaty & i am by no means minted, i am a plain diesel tech covered in crap all day long trying to earn a living to pay for the things i enjoy, ie greeves bikes.

[ADickerson]

Hi Dave, as we were having a cosy exchange between like minded individuals before somebody put their unwelcome size ten Jack boot in to taint correspondence I'd like to try and get us back on track.
Despite my natural affections, I'm not "totally two stroke", I have a half share in a 500Triumph Sprite and I have to say that apart from scaring the heck out of me on the few occasions I've taken it out, it does handle remarkably well. I'll never tame it or get anywhere near the best out of it but it is an exciting challenge all the same. It's nearly as fast as the Griffon!I'd like to take you back to your reminicence of thrupence a week pocketmoney, we must have been on a similar contract! Coming from a family of six children, my side of it consisted of washing up, trips to the shop and chopping firewood. So I was lucky to learn the value of money at a very early age and with no regrets, after all we all have to learn to contribute at some stage. A bit like we do here on the website I guess! Keep up the dialogue guys I can talk a race far quicker than I can ever ride it.

[John Wakefield]

Who said anything about keeping expenses low, do you know how much a decent pre 65 bike costs, you want to attend an average meeting & view the hard ware on show, then go back price it up.
There is no cheap racing anymore & any one that thinks todays pre 65 replicates yesteryear is out of touch.
I don`t agree with it but that is how it is, you have to spend reasonable money just to get half a chance.
Most riders i know use modern technology in there motors , if not for power increase, then for reliabilaty & i am by no means minted, i am a plain diesel tech covered in crap all day long trying to earn a living to pay for the things i enjoy, ie greeves bikes.

I appreciate what you saying Dave & am not getting at you personally. Quite frankly its the organisers & governing body of the sport that has let this happen. When the whole vintage / pre 65 scene evolved it was to form a cheap form of sport using bikes from an earlier era which were still laying around. As with all rules someone started to bend them, a few holes drilled to lighten the frame, a few modern bits added (all fueled I might say by the ever growing specialist suppliers) and on it goes until what we have today is expensive 'trick' machines far removed from the original, that cost a mint.
I am glad I had the best days of trials & enduros (never did scrambles) in the 60's & 70's when clubs will still running one lap trials using natural hazzards of mud, tree roots, hills etc & the route went along green lanes. Nothing really dangerous but enough to take serious marks off you on a wet winters day.In those days trials was a winter sport in the closed scrambles season. Sadly these got fewer & fewer (due the rally act, insurance, & lack of land) & clubs then started the multilap events on one piece of land where in many cases clubs had to 'import' unnatural hazzards to take marks. As the sections became tougher so the bikes became more specialised (and expensive) & we arrived at the Gas Gas & other makes including more recently Richard Deals new Greeves. Just trick bikes, not something you can ride on the road. They dont even have a seat.
Personally at 68 I am now content to ride a road bike (which I do regularly) many people ask me why I dont get an old 'Scottish' and have another go at pre 65 events. I think I have answered that. I rest my case